Kids And The Martial Arts

[MJS]

In another thread in the General MA section, a thread was started on what type of MA program is best for a child. Seeing that kids make up a big portion of schools, I thought I'd start this thread to discuss the material that is taught.

Now, there is always a possibility that a child could be attacked by another child. The possibility is also there for them to be abducted by an adult. The arts teach a wide variety of techniques, kicks, blocks and strikes.

During my time teaching, I've had people comment to me on some of the things that were taught, such as a kick to the groin or a rake to the eyes. Some would say that they didn't feel their child would be able to bring themselves to do something like that, and others felt that it was just way too violent. Valid concerns on their behalf? Of course. However, I just can't see a small child pulling off a wrist lock on an adult. I would do my best to explain this to the parents, stating that depending on the circumstances, a move that appears violent, may be the childs only option.

So...that brings me to the point of this discussion. What do you feel are the best tools for a child to use? As always, having them do their best to escape is important, and stressing to them to use their training as a last resort. I'm sure the last thing a parent wants, is a call from the school or the Police, saying that their child gouged the eyes of a classmate because they cut in front of them in the lunch line.

Mike

 

[fnorfurfoot]

Here are some random things that I go over with my younger students.

1. If they are being grabbed by an adult, we work on yelling that the person is not their parent. Frantically yelling NO NO NO could be misinterpreted as a disobedient child by other adults.

2. I don't teach kicks to the groin to my younger students. Any technique that involves a strike to the groin is turned into a shot to the stomach. This is basically for me. I don't have time for them to be giggling for ten minutes each time I show them a groin strike.

3. The best targets a child has against an adult are pokes to the eyes and palms to the ears. They might not be able to cause tons of pain, but it could be enough for the child to have time to run away to get help.

Sorry if I misspelled anything.

 

[CoryKS]

Good thread! My seven-year-old boy and I study kenpo so yeah, he's learning eye gouges, groin strikes, the works. His teacher frequently reminds the class that these techniques are never for fights with classmates or anything other than real danger.

That said, I was wrestling around with him one day and grabbed him in a bearhug from the front, arms pinned. I felt a sudden pain in the groin, and as I looked down he brought his forearm around to the side of my head. Not hard - just to let me know he could have done it. I don't know about wrist locks, but other techniques are possible against an adult, especially if the adult isn't expecting it.

I think as you said, the best primary tools are escape and finding adult intervention. Sparring for the schoolyard fights which cannot be avoided, and, depending on the child's demonstrated ability to use good judgement, the more violent tactics in case of adult attack. With frequent reminders of when it's okay to use them.

 

[MJS]

Here are some random things that I go over with my younger students.

1. If they are being grabbed by an adult, we work on yelling that the person is not their parent. Frantically yelling NO NO NO could be misinterpreted as a disobedient child by other adults.

Great idea!

2. I don't teach kicks to the groin to my younger students. Any technique that involves a strike to the groin is turned into a shot to the stomach. This is basically for me. I don't have time for them to be giggling for ten minutes each time I show them a groin strike.

LOL, yeah, I know what you mean. It took me a few to get their attention back after all the laughing.

3. The best targets a child has against an adult are pokes to the eyes and palms to the ears. They might not be able to cause tons of pain, but it could be enough for the child to have time to run away to get help.

I agree! It may not put them on the ground, but it just might buy them time to escape.

Mike

 

[Drac]

Here are some random things that I go over with my younger students.

1. If they are being grabbed by an adult, we work on yelling that the person is not their parent. Frantically yelling NO NO NO could be misinterpreted as a disobedient child by other adults.

2. I don't teach kicks to the groin to my younger students. Any technique that involves a strike to the groin is turned into a shot to the stomach. This is basically for me. I don't have time for them to be giggling for ten minutes each time I show them a groin strike.

3. The best targets a child has against an adult are pokes to the eyes and palms to the ears. They might not be able to cause tons of pain, but it could be enough for the child to have time to run away to get help.

Sorry if I misspelled anything.

Great post..

 

[MJS]

Good thread! My seven-year-old boy and I study kenpo so yeah, he's learning eye gouges, groin strikes, the works. His teacher frequently reminds the class that these techniques are never for fights with classmates or anything other than real danger.

That said, I was wrestling around with him one day and grabbed him in a bearhug from the front, arms pinned. I felt a sudden pain in the groin, and as I looked down he brought his forearm around to the side of my head. Not hard - just to let me know he could have done it. I don't know about wrist locks, but other techniques are possible against an adult, especially if the adult isn't expecting it.

I think as you said, the best primary tools are escape and finding adult intervention. Sparring for the schoolyard fights which cannot be avoided, and, depending on the child's demonstrated ability to use good judgement, the more violent tactics in case of adult attack. With frequent reminders of when it's okay to use them.

Ahh...one of the many things I love about Kenpo!!:ultracool Yes, thats the best we can do...constantly re-enforce when and when not to use certain things. I think, in my case, the biggest problem was that the parents really didn't have that clear of an idea as to what the arts are all about. Some tend to forget that if they're sending their child there for SD, contact and all those 'dirty tactics' are all part of the game. If it was a matter of a child striking the eye or being abducted, I'd want them to go for the eye every time.

Mike

 

[Blindside]

I teach kids to bite, (on top of screaming for help and eye/groin)and this might be controversial but it is one of the few tools kids have that can truly inflict pain. I was teaching an afterschool program in Seattle and I had one of the parents ask me why I would suggest such a thing. After I explained it to her, she and a couple of the other moms were saying "maybe we should enroll," (it was a program for 3-6th grade).

Lamont

PS: We have zero problems teaching groin strikes, it is simply part of what we do. You might get some giggles, but no more than if you do something else funny as part of training.

 

[gixxershane]

all great replies.. i would and do teach the groin strikes. i do have to say that thier voice is probably their most powerfull weapon that they have as far as drawing attention... i like the idea of telling them about the ears and eyes in a real situation against an adult. i also teach throat shots because it dosnt take much to inflict pain their..
also dont forget the shin kicks and foot stomps they could also be usefull tools.

 

[Tez3]

I think the only problem with groin strikes is maybe that the attacker is expecting them? I hear a lot of non MA people say 'well I'd kick/hit him where it hurts', I think most men tend to protect themselves especially if they have the intent to attack or abduct someone. I have no problem teacjing groin strikes though, it's just another target. ( Ok so I'm female which may colour my thinking!)

 

[MJS]

I think the only problem with groin strikes is maybe that the attacker is expecting them? I hear a lot of non MA people say 'well I'd kick/hit him where it hurts', I think most men tend to protect themselves especially if they have the intent to attack or abduct someone. I have no problem teacjing groin strikes though, it's just another target. ( Ok so I'm female which may colour my thinking!)

Yes, that is a possibility. So, I don't know if you instruct kids at all, but I'm interested in how you base your program for them.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Can you point me to some stats that show it is less so. All of the ones I have ever seen show that things are a lot safer now.

It's odd, the areas that the kids still have that freedom are the areas that most parents wouldn't let there kids even visit without a 2 man security force...

I think it's rather sad that kids no longer have freedom, and I worry how that will effect this generation when they reach adulthood and where never able to explore the neighbouhood and play in the park unsupervised growing up.

:-offtopic And what exactly does this have to do with the thread topic??

 

[kidswarrior]

Again, I didn't start this thread to talk about stats. I want to hear about the best tools to use....
Mike

Good point. Good topic. I added a very few techniques to the discussion, but teaching kids this young is still very new to me (only a couple of months, and even that was by accident ), so I'm still learning. But I like the good, comprehensive response by jks9199:

The scope and methodology of teaching should change as the kids age -- but it should be part of the program from the earliest steps. (Kindergarden might be simply yelling "stop -- you're not my daddy" while HS should include effective defenses against grabs, etc.)

That said -- the first thing I focus on with young students is being aware of the environment, and then saying "NO" or "STOP" to an adult. Many of them CAN'T do so without practice, and encouragement. Then, I teach simple targets selected for maximum effect -- eyes, groin, knees & throat, along with simple, but effective, methods for breaking grabs. As important as teaching the how, though, is to teach the WHEN. When to initiate it (as soon as possible!), and what situations to use it in. And all of it is followed up with constant reinforcement of getting ADULT help.

And Shaderon:

P.S. I LOVE the biting one!

Me too! I have a kindergarten girl in one class (what was I thinking?!), and this may be her best shot at escape. She won't be able to reach many of the tagets older kids can, at least not with enough power to be effective.

So, I'm learning from this thread, and am looking for further techniques form the 'vets'.

 

[Carol]

Moderator Note:

Attention all users, please return to the original topic of discussion focusing on what tools a child has to defend themselves.

Thanks,

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator -

 

[CoryKS]

I am loving this discussion, but like MJS said, it's not the topic here, the topic here is what we teach the kids.

Can the thread be split if we're going to continue? Is that an option?

Since we're speaking in the context of martial arts, and not self-defense in general, I won't repeat the points about awareness, parental involvement, etc., and stick to what's left. Assume that if it's a MA-related situation, all the other things have failed and what you have is a physical confrontation. What you have are, as MJS pointed out in the original post, schoolyard fights and attacks by adults.

IMO, you give them the tools to handle both. So you give them the nasty attacks - groin, eyes, throat - with explicit rules on when to use them. And then you give them the basics - punches, kicks, evasion - they need to defend themselves in schoolyard settings without causing serious damage. Again, with explicit rules on when to use them. Defense only; hitting another child because he cut in front of you in the lunch line doesn't qualify.

 

[Lisa]

Moderator Note:

Several posts regarding Statistics have been split from this thread and can be found here.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.

 

[Kacey]

I teach kids to yell "not my parent", "fire", "call 911", and similar things. I also teach awareness, and talk through situations they should avoid, situations they may find themselves in, and how to get out of them. For example, if someone who makes you nervous is following you, and you can't get away, approach another adult (especially one with kids) - because you are likely safer with an adult you approach than one who approaches you. I teach them to go to stores, fire or police stations, bus stops, or anywhere else they can find other people. I teach them to avoid closed in areas like alleys, and to avoid short-cuts through dangerous areas (including what dangerous areas are). I teach them to not follow strangers who ask them for help finding a street, a lost pet, etc. - and especially not to get into cars with strangers. I teach kids and their parents about having family passwords.

Most importantly, I think, I teach them to NOT STOP FIGHTING BACK. I can't find the article right now, but there was a girl who was abducted a few months back and shoved into the back seat of a pickup truck; she continued to fight, bite, grab, pinch any part of her abductor she could reach... several hundred yards down the road he released her, scared stiff but physically unharmed.

I also teach kids the importance of knowing their parents' phone numbers and complete address(es) (including city, state and zip code), rather than relying on having them programmed into cell phones or other electronic devices which could be taken away. I teach them that you can call 911 on a pay phone even without money.

All of this is in addition to the regular curriculum of my TKD class - and I teach most of it to the adults, as well; the only real difference is that adults are more likely to know phone numbers and addresses, and have some different tools for fighting back; also, when talking through possible scenarios in which they may need to defend themselves, there are a set of scenarios for adults that never come up for kids, mostly involving leaving bars, clubs, restaurants or other places late at night, and the additional dangers that can cause.

 

[Shaderon]

Since we're speaking in the context of martial arts, and not self-defense in general, I won't repeat the points about awareness, parental involvement, etc., and stick to what's left. Assume that if it's a MA-related situation, all the other things have failed and what you have is a physical confrontation. What you have are, as MJS pointed out in the original post, schoolyard fights and attacks by adults.

IMO, you give them the tools to handle both. So you give them the nasty attacks - groin, eyes, throat - with explicit rules on when to use them. And then you give them the basics - punches, kicks, evasion - they need to defend themselves in schoolyard settings without causing serious damage. Again, with explicit rules on when to use them. Defense only; hitting another child because he cut in front of you in the lunch line doesn't qualify.

Yes I think the rules on when to use them are just as important, and with some children even more important than the techniques themselves. Kids can so easily get caught up on a power trip showing each other what they can do and could very easily hurt each other, and maybe even turn into a bully.

I've just been having a discussion with my daughter over what to do if someone grabbed her in a shop and a very good point came up, in our scenario she wanted to kick the man in his family jewels (she's a charmer) but her leg wouldn't come up that high with any force, in the opinion of you guys, if the child wanted to kick as mine does, what's the best place to kick a big strong man by a kid? in the knees? in the ankles? or indeed in the "family jewels"? Or should tell her to stomp on his toes and scream "you aren't my dad leave me alone"?

 

[kidswarrior]

I've just been having a discussion with my daughter over what to do if someone grabbed her in a shop and a very good point came up, in our scenario she wanted to kick the man in his family jewels (she's a charmer) but her leg wouldn't come up that high with any force, in the opinion of you guys, if the child wanted to kick as mine does, what's the best place to kick a big strong man by a kid? in the knees? in the ankles? or indeed in the "family jewels"? Or should tell her to stomp on his toes and scream "you aren't my dad leave me alone"?

Any of that would be OK, but a good soccer kick (inside blade kick) to the shin can really be nice, especially if she can repeat it to the exact same spot a second time. Even though a quick toe kick to the shin is stronger and faster (and two in a row will topple most grown men--I have a bruise that's three years old from practicing this with a friend who repeated it to be sure I got the point :uhyeah, a soccer style kick is surer to land because of the broader possible striking surface (edge of foot vs. toe). And if the kick can be followed with 'scraping the bacon', as in scraping your foot along his shin from the point of the kick all the way down to his foot, the child is in pretty good shape for about 7-10 seconds. Hopefully enough to get away/summon help.

 

[kidswarrior]

I teach kids to yell "not my parent", "fire", "call 911", and similar things. I also teach awareness, and talk through situations they should avoid, situations they may find themselves in, and how to get out of them. For example, if someone who makes you nervous is following you, and you can't get away, approach another adult (especially one with kids) - because you are likely safer with an adult you approach than one who approaches you. I teach them to go to stores, fire or police stations, bus stops, or anywhere else they can find other people. I teach them to avoid closed in areas like alleys, and to avoid short-cuts through dangerous areas (including what dangerous areas are). I teach them to not follow strangers who ask them for help finding a street, a lost pet, etc. - and especially not to get into cars with strangers. I teach kids and their parents about having family passwords.

Most importantly, I think, I teach them to NOT STOP FIGHTING BACK. I can't find the article right now, but there was a girl who was abducted a few months back and shoved into the back seat of a pickup truck; she continued to fight, bite, grab, pinch any part of her abductor she could reach... several hundred yards down the road he released her, scared stiff but physically unharmed.

I also teach kids the importance of knowing their parents' phone numbers and complete address(es) (including city, state and zip code), rather than relying on having them programmed into cell phones or other electronic devices which could be taken away. I teach them that you can call 911 on a pay phone even without money.

All of this is in addition to the regular curriculum of my TKD class - and I teach most of it to the adults, as well; the only real difference is that adults are more likely to know phone numbers and addresses, and have some different tools for fighting back; also, when talking through possible scenarios in which they may need to defend themselves, there are a set of scenarios for adults that never come up for kids, mostly involving leaving bars, clubs, restaurants or other places late at night, and the additional dangers that can cause.

Great stuff, Kacey! :ultracool

 

[kidswarrior]

Yes, that is a possibility. So, I don't know if you instruct kids at all, but I'm interested in how you base your program for them.

Mike

Hey Mike,

Great topic, and very timely for me as I just got some younger students. Is our purpose in the thread to kind of catalogue a list of techniques that we use/think would work, or are you also asking us about the overall program(s) we use with the little ones?

Thanks,
Mark