Kenpo Gun Disarms

[MJS]

While reading about the upcoming Bob White/Ron Sanchez seminar, this segment caught my eye:

Ron Sanchez is a 30+ year student of the martial arts who hold multiple black belts including a 5th degree in American Kenpo. Mr. Sanchez is also a 30+ year (retired) veteran of the LAPD and will teach practical, proven gun disarms as well as discuss strategic defense and tactics required to survive encounters with urban predators.

Just curious as to what the differences, if any, are, with the gun disarms that will be taught at this seminar, vs what we typically see taught in the Parker system. Has anyone had any prior experience with Mr. Sanchez and his method of dealing with the gun?

 

[MJS]

2 days later and 80 views...

So....does this mean that a) nobody knows anything about the man, b) or nobody wants to ask questions about the material that other people do?

I was hoping that either someone with knowledge of Mr. Sanchez would comment, the person who posted the original flyer or Mr. White would comment.

This thread was not intended to cause flames, just to get a better idea as to the differences, if any, in the gun techniques.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I just saw the post...

I don't know the guy, but I have seen other LEO and/or military types teaching gun disarms in the past that have pointed out dangers in some of the standard EPAK gun disarm techniques.

The one major thing I have noticed, is that they promote basically grabbing... or rather "hugging" the entire arm wielding the gun.

It seems they promote more control of the entire arm and not just the weapon from my observations...

 

[MJS]

I just saw the post...

No problem man. I bumped it up in hopes to hear from someone, so thanks for your feedback.

I don't know the guy, but I have seen other LEO and/or military types teaching gun disarms in the past that have pointed out dangers in some of the standard EPAK gun disarm techniques.

The one major thing I have noticed, is that they promote basically grabbing... or rather "hugging" the entire arm wielding the gun.

It seems they promote more control of the entire arm and not just the weapon from my observations...

Interesting that you say that, because I, over the past few weeks, have worked some knife and gun techniques with my Arnis inst., who works for the DOC. Much of what we've worked on, especially in the area of the gun, has involved just what you said....marrying the weapon arm to us.

He's ranked in Kenpo as well, so we'll often take some of the standard knife/gun techs. do them as is, and try to look for those dangers, and ways to address them.

Hopefully some of our resident Kenpo (Parker, Tracy, Kaju) people, in addition to any LEOs on the forum, will chime in, and give their thoughts as well.

 

[jks9199]

I'd like to hear more about the kenpo gun disarms; what are they? Are they built on a common principle or running in different ways?

 

[jks9199]

I'd like to hear more about the kenpo gun disarms; what are they? Are they built on a common principle or running in different ways?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Years back I asked some questions about kenpo gun disarms, even went so far as to say "lets try them out with a paintball pistol". Never happened. My opinion is, they don't work unless you're Neo, or have 20+ years practice. Anyone else, you get a bullet in the back. Not familiar with Mr. Sanchez, but the techs I am familiar with were designed for revolvers, not Glocks.

 

[LawDog]

The problem with gun disarms from "any" style is that many of the instructors themselves are not familiar with firearms. Each type of weapon has to be approached in a slightly different manner.
Ex,
*auto pistol vs revolver
*shotgun vs rifle,
*in close vs slight distance,
*being grabbed at gun point vs not,
*etc.
Kenpo weapon "disarms" or "disables" do work. I have taught these disarms to various law enforcement agencies and they all like them. They are simple, fast and to the point.
It might not be the styles techniques that are off, it could be instead the person tha is teaching them.
The best Instructor in this field is a person called, Sensei Practice.
:sniper:

 

[MJS]

The problem with gun disarms from "any" style is that many of the instructors themselves are not familiar with firearms. Each type of weapon has to be approached in a slightly different manner.
Ex,
*auto pistol vs revolver
*shotgun vs rifle,
*in close vs slight distance,
*being grabbed at gun point vs not,
*etc.
Kenpo weapon "disarms" or "disables" do work. I have taught these disarms to various law enforcement agencies and they all like them. They are simple, fast and to the point.
It might not be the styles techniques that are off, it could be instead the person tha is teaching them.
The best Instructor in this field is a person called, Sensei Practice.
:sniper:

And this is probably the main reason why I always talk about looking at art that specialize in certain areas. IMHO, there're so many people, who say that you dont have to, that its all there, etc., etc., but if you're not familiar with the ins and outs of the gun, the blade, grappling, etc., the teaching will be, IMO, limited at best. So yes, alot comes down to the teacher.

 

[MJS]

I'd like to hear more about the kenpo gun disarms; what are they? Are they built on a common principle or running in different ways?

For viewing purposes, you can look at this:
http://www.kenpo-texas.com/techblk1.html

#'s 7, 14, 18 and 20 are some of the Kenpo gun techs.

 

[jks9199]

For viewing purposes, you can look at this:
http://www.kenpo-texas.com/techblk1.html

#'s 7, 14, 18 and 20 are some of the Kenpo gun techs.

I like the basic line of #7 -- but the actual motions seem overcomplicated and rely on a lot of assumptions. For example, a revolver won't fire if you keep the cylinder from turning and hammer from dropping -- but a semiauto can fire even if the slide won't move afterwards; it just won't chamber the next round. And I just feel that, without a whole lot of practice, eye jabs/pokes are good ways to jam your fingers and have little effect. (Personal opinion...)

#14 is a classic approach to a rarely encountered situation -- the gun to the back. I'm much more a fan of getting off the line of the gun first, not spinning in place. And, if you actually get the gun as it says you do in step 3 -- my opinion would be step back, and cover down. I'm a fan of overkill... but why play games when you now have the gun? If the grab fails -- by all means, keep going & tear the ogre down. Similar comments about #18... but I'd like to see moving further in than described much earlier.

There's a common theme, I think, of overcomplication and assumptions about how a person is going to hold a gun on you. They're workable but, if I'm reading them right, they kind of rely on the bad guy playing by the rules, and they seem not to really get that action is faster than reaction -- and the bad guy already is acting when they point a gun at you.

 

[Franc0]

Hmmm, some good points made. Is there any video out there of these Kenpo gun disarms?

 

[K831]

The problem with gun disarms from "any" style is that many of the instructors themselves are not familiar with firearms. Each type of weapon has to be approached in a slightly different manner.
Ex,
*auto pistol vs revolver
*shotgun vs rifle,
*in close vs slight distance,
*being grabbed at gun point vs not,
*etc.
Kenpo weapon "disarms" or "disables" do work. I have taught these disarms to various law enforcement agencies and they all like them. They are simple, fast and to the point.
It might not be the styles techniques that are off, it could be instead the person tha is teaching them.
The best Instructor in this field is a person called, Sensei Practice.
:sniper:

Exactly. An instructor unfamiliar with firearms will have a tough time teaching gun disarms from any style. An instructor who is a shooter will better bridge that gap.

Training with airsoft guns help a lot. Just like chalked up knives or magic markers - you suddenly find out just how hard it is not get cut or shot.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I was at the seminar last year that he did on the same subject.
I would say that my memory is fuzzy... but I do remember he places alot of emphasis on familiarity with firearms, his particular experience, why his personal choice for disarms is different then most martial arts aspects.... along the lines of him working with a partner as an officer, and being trained to work with that partner to team up against an opponent in a disarm situation...
The disarms were pretty much what I have seen elsewhere... afterall there are only so many ways to get out of the way of the guns business end, get the gun, and disarm the gun...
I really liked his realism... hes not joking around, hes not BSing anyone, hes pretty straight to the point, and pretty practical. I enjoyed drilling the movements he showed to us, and will actually be at this next seminar as well.... I am going more to support the Studio, and the cause, but will listen intently to Ron Sanchez as he gives his information.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Years back I asked some questions about kenpo gun disarms, even went so far as to say "lets try them out with a paintball pistol". Never happened. My opinion is, they don't work unless you're Neo, or have 20+ years practice. Anyone else, you get a bullet in the back. Not familiar with Mr. Sanchez, but the techs I am familiar with were designed for revolvers, not Glocks.

the key to gun disarms and successfully performing them is to first be realistic... in your acceptance of the situation, your understanding of the situation, your ability to understand your own value system and what you are prepared to do in a life or death situation, and your ability to make the move work..

the disarms do not work against a smart gunman.....or a determined gunman who is going to shoot you from distance..
if a bad guy comes up on you and jams the gun into your back or front, they already made a mistake.
there are tons of different scenarios, the gun disarms are only going to work against someone who is already making mistakes...

 

[K831]

the key to gun disarms and successfully performing them is to first be realistic... in your acceptance of the situation, your understanding of the situation, your ability to understand your own value system and what you are prepared to do in a life or death situation, and your ability to make the move work..

the disarms do not work against a smart gunman.....or a determined gunman who is going to shoot you from distance..
if a bad guy comes up on you and jams the gun into your back or front, they already made a mistake.
there are tons of different scenarios, the gun disarms are only going to work against someone who is already making mistakes...

We talked a lot about this in the last CQB handgun course I took. Good point.

 

[jks9199]

A smart gunman isn't going to be close enough for any reasonable disarm to work, in an ideal situation. If I'm drawn done on you, I don't have to be inside 25 feet or so, ideally. But in the real world -- you end up holding someone at gunpoint at 5 or 10 or 15 feet. Your best thing then is to create distance... but it's not always a possibility.

But that's from a "being the guy with the gun" POV. Defending against a gun? What situations are likely? Looking at my own experience as a police officer and investigator -- typically, a gunman produces the gun at a range of a few to several feet apart, as they make a demand for cash or some such. If they're actually shooting... typically they're doing that, and not brandishing and showing it first. Or at least not for long! In many cases, the gun is either implied or only shown in the waistband or hidden...

My personal preference, from my own training and my understanding of the dynamics of these encounters, is not to generally mess with disarming, but to move in and quickly and savagely attack. Overwhelm them with aggression and do the best you can to take them out of the fight permanently; after all, it is CLEARLY a deadly force situation. There's just too much that can get screwy if you try to take the gun... and the bad guy already knows whether or not it's loaded or even "real." NOTE: it doesn't matter to you whether it's real or loaded. As long as you reasonably think they're holding a GUN on you, it can be a block of soap! Treat it like it's a real gun!

(Legal disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not giving legal advice. In fact, I'm not even going to discuss the legal issues. They're a worthy thread all by themselves.)

I'd like to actually see these kenpo techniques; I've got a loose understanding of the stances and such but that's not the same as seeing them.

 

[RonSanchez]

While reading about the upcoming Bob White/Ron Sanchez seminar, this segment caught my eye:



Just curious as to what the differences, if any, are, with the gun disarms that will be taught at this seminar, vs what we typically see taught in the Parker system. Has anyone had any prior experience with Mr. Sanchez and his method of dealing with the gun?

Hi everyone:

I'm doing this from my phone so if there are typos please excuse me. My approach to firearm disarming techniques is actually simple. The seminar will focus on handguns. The first part of the seminar I cover the differences between the most common handguns for example revolver verse semi auto then I break semi auto down to single action; double action, double action only, and falling block action (Glocks). I go over mindset, Survival statistics, manipulating distance, the fight or flight syndrome and three techniques. As far as the differences between the "Rod Techniques" in EPAK and what I teach they are considerable. The techniques I teach focus on major muscle movement because in my experience fine motor skills disappear for the vast majority of people during "fight or flight. ". Also, i would never recommend releasing a hand from an opponents gun to strike him or to perofrm an eye pokes which is in a couple of the EPAK techniques. While I think the EPAK techniques can be effective with advanced practioners I am of the opinion that they are overly intricate considering what will happen to most people if a gun s pointed at them from close quarters. So, I hope to see you there and it's for a great cause and all of the donations go to help abused kids.


Respectfully,


Ron Sanchez

 

[MJS]

Hi everyone:

I'm doing this from my phone so if there are typos please excuse me. My approach to firearm disarming techniques is actually simple. The seminar will focus on handguns. The first part of the seminar I cover the differences between the most common handguns for example revolver verse semi auto then I break semi auto down to single action; double action, double action only, and falling block action (Glocks). I go over mindset, Survival statistics, manipulating distance, the fight or flight syndrome and three techniques. As far as the differences between the "Rod Techniques" in EPAK and what I teach they are considerable. The techniques I teach focus on major muscle movement because in my experience fine motor skills disappear for the vast majority of people during "fight or flight. ". Also, i would never recommend releasing a hand from an opponents gun to strike him or to perofrm an eye pokes which is in a couple of the EPAK techniques. While I think the EPAK techniques can be effective with advanced practioners I am of the opinion that they are overly intricate considering what will happen to most people if a gun s pointed at them from close quarters. So, I hope to see you there and it's for a great cause and all of the donations go to help abused kids.


Respectfully,


Ron Sanchez

Mr. Sanchez,

Thank you for taking the time to not only join the forum, but to also reply to this thread. My thoughts are pretty much the same, as the person that I work the majority of my gun techs with, also advocates the control, vs releasing a hand to strike, as you mentioned.

Unfortunately, I wont be able to attend this seminar, however, if you're ever in the New England area, (CT) I would definately be there.

Thanks again for your reply, and I look forward to hearing more from you.

Mike Slosek

 

[RonSanchez]

Mr. Slosek:

Thanks and I am sure my travels will get me out there soon and I would enjoy meeting you.


Thanks and take care,


Ron Sanchez