Katas' and the book "Attack Proof"

[still learning]

Hello, The book "Attack Proof" has a report of the use of Kata's and it makes alot of sense to me. (katas are prearrange fighting)

Fighting is chaos and Kata's are prearrange fighting. I always felt from the begining(when I first started in shotokan,) Katas was good for excerise and learning the basics of putting things together. But not for real street fighing!

It is an inside feeling I get when I do katas and see other do it too. It is not a great tool for "real fighting". There are other ways to prepare for actully self-defense. ( All the Kata moves-will you use it in a real fight?) Do we fight like kata's?

Please if you get a chance to read the book..and share your thoughts on this?

My instincts is kata's is not neccessary, and there are many other ways to prepare for a real fight (chaos's),which will prove itself in the near future........................the training of human being is changing so fast...because of the new knowledge being learn and share.....Aloha

 

[ppko]

Hello, The book "Attack Proof" has a report of the use of Kata's and it makes alot of sense to me. (katas are prearrange fighting)

Fighting is chaos and Kata's are prearrange fighting. I always felt from the begining(when I first started in shotokan,) Katas was good for excerise and learning the basics of putting things together. But not for real street fighing!

It is an inside feeling I get when I do katas and see other do it too. It is not a great tool for "real fighting". There are other ways to prepare for actully self-defense. ( All the Kata moves-will you use it in a real fight?) Do we fight like kata's?

Please if you get a chance to read the book..and share your thoughts on this?

My instincts is kata's is not neccessary, and there are many other ways to prepare for a real fight (chaos's),which will prove itself in the near future........................the training of human being is changing so fast...because of the new knowledge being learn and share.....Aloha

Katas are not neccessaary for fighting,but they are good for street fighting do we fight exactly like the katas do no we don't but if katas are practiced right and you know that there are multiple uses for one move that is when they are usefull in a fight. Let's say that you are fighting with someone (assuming you do katas and can actually visualize someone attacking you,or vice versa(and do it so that it seem plausible))and you find yourself in a situation that you have visualized before say for instance an armbar, if you have been practicng your kata right there can be many armbar in many kata now you instinctively move on to the next move that the kata has set up (whether it be cross over stance (leg break), side kick (opposite leg break) or whatever). That is my two cents.

**note** the breakdowns that I described are only one of my interpretations of what they can be

 

[Adept]

I agree. For self defense, kata, forms, patterns, whatever you call them, are un neccessary.

 

[ppko]

I agree. For self defense, kata, forms, patterns, whatever you call them, are un neccessary.

everyone does kata, maybe not in a traditional way but shadow boxing, doing preset movements for self defense parry trap strike these are all no different than doing kata. Kata was made for fighting but it was made so that you could practice fighting alone and in a more serious way

 

[Adept]

everyone does kata, maybe not in a traditional way but shadow boxing, doing preset movements for self defense parry trap strike these are all no different than doing kata. Kata was made for fighting but it was made so that you could practice fighting alone and in a more serious way

When I say patterns, I mean formalised, traditional eastern martial arts patterns, which are often twenty or more consecutive moves mapped out in a set pattern. Deviation is not acceptable.

What you describe above are things I would call drills, which I consider to be much shorter, free formed exercises.

You gave an example above about the situation presenting itself, and you applying a move from a kata. In your example, you grab someone in an armbar, and follow on into the next move of the kata, lets say the opposite leg kick you mention. Unfortunately, while you are seamlessly moving into the next position in your kata, your opponent has escaped his armbar and is no longer where you want him to be.

The situation I see is an instructor saying "If you are attacked, do pattern X!" which is simply insane. We all know it is. You can't respond to an attacker by doing a pattern. So, in relation to learning self defence, and not a martial art as a whole, what do they give us? Nothing, says I, that cannot be gained with more ease and less fluffing about from other sources.

The difference between a drill and a pattern, to me, could be highlighted thus; An instructor might say "If an attacker comes at you with a right handed hay-maker, your best bet is to do this, this, and this." You then run that drill a few times, running through seperate drills until your students are ready to start scenario training where they can choose their own drill with which to respond. An instructor could not say "If attacked with a right handed haymaker, perform movemement six of pattern four, movement seven of pattern three, and movement nine of pattern six." The confusion would be terrible to behold, especially for intermediate students who could not cobble the drills together in their heads through experience. You would, in effect, be creating drills because the patterns would not work.

 

[MJS]

They certainly have their place, like everything. Being able to break down the moves, is important in understanding what you're doing. Last week, I was running through the cane forms of Modern Arnis with one of my instructors. We started going through the empty hand translations of the first stick form. Needless to say, my eyes were opened to a bunch of new things.

Mike

 

[ppko]

When I say patterns, I mean formalised, traditional eastern martial arts patterns, which are often twenty or more consecutive moves mapped out in a set pattern. Deviation is not acceptable.

What you describe above are things I would call drills, which I consider to be much shorter, free formed exercises.

You gave an example above about the situation presenting itself, and you applying a move from a kata. In your example, you grab someone in an armbar, and follow on into the next move of the kata, lets say the opposite leg kick you mention. Unfortunately, while you are seamlessly moving into the next position in your kata, your opponent has escaped his armbar and is no longer where you want him to be.

The situation I see is an instructor saying "If you are attacked, do pattern X!" which is simply insane. We all know it is. You can't respond to an attacker by doing a pattern. So, in relation to learning self defence, and not a martial art as a whole, what do they give us? Nothing, says I, that cannot be gained with more ease and less fluffing about from other sources.

The difference between a drill and a pattern, to me, could be highlighted thus; An instructor might say "If an attacker comes at you with a right handed hay-maker, your best bet is to do this, this, and this." You then run that drill a few times, running through seperate drills until your students are ready to start scenario training where they can choose their own drill with which to respond. An instructor could not say "If attacked with a right handed haymaker, perform movemement six of pattern four, movement seven of pattern three, and movement nine of pattern six." The confusion would be terrible to behold, especially for intermediate students who could not cobble the drills together in their heads through experience. You would, in effect, be creating drills because the patterns would not work.

but if you practice kata in the way that I described you are doing exactly what you consider patterns. When I break down katas I do it with a resisting opponent (because we first break them down in our head then on a opponent to make sure it will work). In my example that you used I am not doing these by steps but as worked in patterns I do not put him in an armbar and think about my next move it is already built in, right after the armbar is applied the kick comes no time to waste. Knowing how to do a kata and knowing a kata are two different things, when you are doing your drills or patterns or kata whatever we decide to call them do you only see one application with these or do you see many. If you only see one than you are missing out on a whole lot.

p.s. In my post I never said that you have to think about what move it was but rather just knowing the move you are in

 

[MJS]

When I say patterns, I mean formalised, traditional eastern martial arts patterns, which are often twenty or more consecutive moves mapped out in a set pattern. Deviation is not acceptable.

What you describe above are things I would call drills, which I consider to be much shorter, free formed exercises.

You gave an example above about the situation presenting itself, and you applying a move from a kata. In your example, you grab someone in an armbar, and follow on into the next move of the kata, lets say the opposite leg kick you mention. Unfortunately, while you are seamlessly moving into the next position in your kata, your opponent has escaped his armbar and is no longer where you want him to be.

The situation I see is an instructor saying "If you are attacked, do pattern X!" which is simply insane. We all know it is. You can't respond to an attacker by doing a pattern. So, in relation to learning self defence, and not a martial art as a whole, what do they give us? Nothing, says I, that cannot be gained with more ease and less fluffing about from other sources.

The difference between a drill and a pattern, to me, could be highlighted thus; An instructor might say "If an attacker comes at you with a right handed hay-maker, your best bet is to do this, this, and this." You then run that drill a few times, running through seperate drills until your students are ready to start scenario training where they can choose their own drill with which to respond. An instructor could not say "If attacked with a right handed haymaker, perform movemement six of pattern four, movement seven of pattern three, and movement nine of pattern six." The confusion would be terrible to behold, especially for intermediate students who could not cobble the drills together in their heads through experience. You would, in effect, be creating drills because the patterns would not work.

Deviation from the kata, when first learning it just like combos on a focus mit, when first learning them, is of course, something that should be avoided. We train jab, cross, hook, uppercut on the pads. During sparring, those punches can and are thrown out of order, ie: jab, jab, cross. During a SD technique, the attacker probably is not going to stand still, move the way we hope, etc., but that is why we have the "what if" phase. What if the person moves different in the application of the kata? What if the person does not allow us to get off the punch combo that we hoped for? We simply adjust to what is being presented at the current time. Being able to adapt is ultimately the level we want to get to.

 

[ppko]

Deviation from the kata, when first learning it just like combos on a focus mit, when first learning them, is of course, something that should be avoided. We train jab, cross, hook, uppercut on the pads. During sparring, those punches can and are thrown out of order, ie: jab, jab, cross. During a SD technique, the attacker probably is not going to stand still, move the way we hope, etc., but that is why we have the "what if" phase. What if the person moves different in the application of the kata? What if the person does not allow us to get off the punch combo that we hoped for? We simply adjust to what is being presented at the current time. Being able to adapt is ultimately the level we want to get to.

Good post

 

[arnisador]

When I say patterns, I mean formalised, traditional eastern martial arts patterns, which are often twenty or more consecutive moves mapped out in a set pattern. Deviation is not acceptable.

Bear in mind that these are not only Eastern. Some European sword-fighting schools would also use lengthy pre-arranged sequences to teach basic strokes, postures and transitions. A modern example is briefly discussed here.

Kata aren't necessary, but for some arts it 'fits' and is quite appropriate. I think you can go either way. Every few moves in the kata amounts to a short drill...if sometimes you practice your drills solo and in order, and other times separately and with a partner, couldn't that work?

Training only kata would be a bad idea.

 

[ppko]

Bear in mind that these are not only Eastern. Some European sword-fighting schools would also use lengthy pre-arranged sequences to teach basic strokes, postures and transitions. A modern example is briefly discussed here.

Kata aren't necessary, but for some arts it 'fits' and is quite appropriate. I think you can go either way. Every few moves in the kata amounts to a short drill...if sometimes you practice your drills solo and in order, and other times separately and with a partner, couldn't that work?

Training only kata would be a bad idea.

agreed good post

 

[still learning]

Hello, If Kata's are proven ways to fight? How come UFC,mix martial artist do not practice Kata'. What about the BBJ? Do you see them do kata's?

Boxers,wrestlers, do see them do Kata's?

There has to be a better way to learn more? ..............just my thoughts...Aloha

 

[punisher73]

Hello, If Kata's are proven ways to fight? How come UFC,mix martial artist do not practice Kata'. What about the BBJ? Do you see them do kata's?

Boxers,wrestlers, do see them do Kata's?

They do. You have a very limited understanding of what a kata is. Take boxing for example. You learn a combo of 2-3 punches and some body movement/evasion for defense. You know for a FACT that your opponent is in front of you and you only have one person. More than 2-3 punches and things are more unpredictable. When you are shadowboxing you are stringing a bunch of segments together that are a kata. There is no such thing in shadowboxing as spontaneous or not prearranged unless you are just throwing things out there with no thought to their effect. Each 2-3 move segment is prearranged, but the order you are throwing them in may be unplanned.

Now look at a kata, you have an opponent that attacks and you respond to the attack with 2-3 moves. THEN in a kata you are also dealing with groupings of techniques that are similiar in concept so you practice another attack coming in from a different direction using another grouping of technques similiar to the first since in real life you DO NOT know where the attack will be coming from. Kata is NOT meant to be done start to finish it is small groupings of "drills" that are linked together to show an overall concept or strategy. The combos in kata are meant to be taken out and practiced as drills against an opponent.

Now back to boxing, lets say you had to teach someone how to defend against a wildhaymaker. You would probably show them a response that works well most of the time for you. Now you have to teach them how to defend against that same attack coming from the side. How do you teach them to address that? Now the same attack from the other side. Now to help you remember that they shadowbox those responses with the turns to address those attackers. VOILA you now have created a kata built upon drills just like traditional katas.

 

[jdinca]

When I say patterns, I mean formalised, traditional eastern martial arts patterns, which are often twenty or more consecutive moves mapped out in a set pattern. Deviation is not acceptable.

What you describe above are things I would call drills, which I consider to be much shorter, free formed exercises.

You gave an example above about the situation presenting itself, and you applying a move from a kata. In your example, you grab someone in an armbar, and follow on into the next move of the kata, lets say the opposite leg kick you mention. Unfortunately, while you are seamlessly moving into the next position in your kata, your opponent has escaped his armbar and is no longer where you want him to be.

The situation I see is an instructor saying "If you are attacked, do pattern X!" which is simply insane. We all know it is. You can't respond to an attacker by doing a pattern. So, in relation to learning self defence, and not a martial art as a whole, what do they give us? Nothing, says I, that cannot be gained with more ease and less fluffing about from other sources.

The difference between a drill and a pattern, to me, could be highlighted thus; An instructor might say "If an attacker comes at you with a right handed hay-maker, your best bet is to do this, this, and this." You then run that drill a few times, running through seperate drills until your students are ready to start scenario training where they can choose their own drill with which to respond. An instructor could not say "If attacked with a right handed haymaker, perform movemement six of pattern four, movement seven of pattern three, and movement nine of pattern six." The confusion would be terrible to behold, especially for intermediate students who could not cobble the drills together in their heads through experience. You would, in effect, be creating drills because the patterns would not work.

Katas aren't useless, unless that is the only thing that is taught. As part of a training regimen that is teach you that particular systems movement, I think they do have a role to play. Especially if a premium is placed on the movement being as precise as possible. In a real life situation, that's not going to be the case but the closer you are, the better off your response will be. They can also help you develop your ability to deal with a multiple attacker situation. One drill that I've found pretty enlightening is to do a kata as a mass attack situation, with real people playing the different roles.

If an instructor told me "If attacked, do Pattern X", I would soon thereafter cease being a student at that school. I don't see that there is any foolproof method of instruction. I think to dismiss katas out of hand is missing out on a valuable training tool.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hello, The book "Attack Proof" has a report of the use of Kata's and it makes alot of sense to me. (katas are prearrange fighting)

Fighting is chaos and Kata's are prearrange fighting. I always felt from the begining(when I first started in shotokan,) Katas was good for excerise and learning the basics of putting things together. But not for real street fighing!

It is an inside feeling I get when I do katas and see other do it too. It is not a great tool for "real fighting". There are other ways to prepare for actully self-defense. ( All the Kata moves-will you use it in a real fight?) Do we fight like kata's?

Please if you get a chance to read the book..and share your thoughts on this?

My instincts is kata's is not neccessary, and there are many other ways to prepare for a real fight (chaos's),which will prove itself in the near future........................the training of human being is changing so fast...because of the new knowledge being learn and share.....Aloha

I've read the book as well and believe that, while he makes some great points, he also takes some cheap shots at Traditional Martial Arts. If it were ONLY about fighting, a person should take a quick but effective course in combatives and get a CCW permit, IMO.

I think the consensus is, among those without an ax to grind either way, is that Kata practice can be ONE effective method of training and practice - provided that it is not the sole means of practice.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

"When I say patterns, I mean formalised, traditional eastern martial arts patterns, which are often twenty or more consecutive moves mapped out in a set pattern. Deviation is not acceptable"

If this is all you think of kata then you have no understanding of kata.

People who look at kata and say things like this never come to understand the word bunkai, "to pick apart" or "dissect". If you are looking at the kata as in the quote above, then you never dissected it.

I would suggest finding a real karate teacher who fully and properly teaches each kata before moving on to sparring and then come back and let us know what you think.

If you are not using what you learned in kata when you fight, then that is a problem. It is very sad to go and watch a karate class where they practice kata and then spar. Then when they spar, all that they were shown in the kata ("the essence of karate") is tossed aside and they just hop around like a bunch of clowns with no correction from the teacher.

Kata is not about waiting for a fight and then just doing a Pinan or Bassai, like the "kata is useless crowd" likes to make it out to be.

Taking Karate without kata is like taking any a science class without a text book. Try going to any university and tell a Biology Professor that text books are useless because a real biologist doesn't use them.

 

[Adept]

I apologise if anywhere I have said that I think patterns are useless.

My position is that, for self defence training, they are un neccessary and perhaps even counter productive. I'm not talking about learning the whole art, or training to be a black belt, I'm talking about straight up self defence training. The sort of training you might find at a womens self defence course, or courses for security or law enforcement personnell, as well as the self defence components of regular martial arts.

I certainly understand the way you can break down patterns or forms, take the component moves, and create workable SD drills from them. My question is, can you effectively teach SD without patterns?

My answer, from my own experiences, is yes. In many cases it is easier without them.

 

[ppko]

I apologise if anywhere I have said that I think patterns are useless.

My position is that, for self defence training, they are un neccessary and perhaps even counter productive. I'm not talking about learning the whole art, or training to be a black belt, I'm talking about straight up self defence training. The sort of training you might find at a womens self defence course, or courses for security or law enforcement personnell, as well as the self defence components of regular martial arts.

I certainly understand the way you can break down patterns or forms, take the component moves, and create workable SD drills from them. My question is, can you effectively teach SD without patterns?

My answer, from my own experiences, is yes. In many cases it is easier without them.

agreed, I and I am sure others took what you said wrong and I am sorry if I went a little to far with this (hopefully I didn't and you did not take it like I did), I was just trying to express what I have seen and been a part of. I gave up kata many years ago thought they weere useless until I met Dusty Seale now I am T.A. Frazer and I am always excited to learn a new kata because the breakdowns are just amazing.

 

[Makalakumu]

Once one learns to read a kata, they help one remember various defensive techniques. Of course one could just practice the techniques and do away with the kata. However, there is a limit on the amount of information that can be passed on this way. I may learn 100 self defense techniques in a combatives class that uses no kata. I could also learn 100 self defense techniques from a single kata.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Hello, If Kata's are proven ways to fight? How come UFC,mix martial artist do not practice Kata'. What about the BBJ? Do you see them do kata's?

Boxers,wrestlers, do see them do Kata's?

There has to be a better way to learn more? ..............just my thoughts...Aloha

They do, they just don't call it kata.

Also, no one said kata is the only way to learn. And I do not know of any good school that teaches only kata.

If someone wants to write a self defense book that does not include kata, that is fine. But if they are going to write about kata they should first come to understand it. When someone says kata is useless, it is only because they do not understand it.

Also, if you buy a BJJ book or video and then practice the techniques that they show as they are shown, then you are doing kata. If a BJJ teacher demonstrates a technique and then everyone gets on the floor and does that technique as he showed, then they are doing kata.