Jump Kicks with a Fake - Videos and Usage Discussion

[Makalakumu]

Here are some videos of jump kicks preceeded by a fake that we practice in my dojang. What do you think of these techniques? How would you train them for use in self defense?

 

[MBuzzy]

Sir,

We practice very few jumping kicks (plenty of spin kicks though), so I was curious....Is the fake that you demonstrate a standard part of these kicks? How widely used is this?

I remember from my training in the US that all of the jumping kicks I learned were preceded by that fake. At the time, I didn't realize the purpose, but now I am questioning more.

I plan to ask my Sa bom nim tomorrow to demonstrate these kicks with and without the fake in front of them.

Personally, I think that these are very useful...both because they throw off your opponent from where your attack is coming from, but also in covering more ground.

As for self defense...Good question. My initial thoughts would to be use them in a situation where your attacker is a considerably distance from you, to cover ground more quickly and deliver a decisive head blow.

 

[Makalakumu]

Sir,

We practice very few jumping kicks (plenty of spin kicks though), so I was curious....Is the fake that you demonstrate a standard part of these kicks? How widely used is this?

I remember from my training in the US that all of the jumping kicks I learned were preceded by that fake. At the time, I didn't realize the purpose, but now I am questioning more.

I plan to ask my Sa bom nim tomorrow to demonstrate these kicks with and without the fake in front of them.

Personally, I think that these are very useful...both because they throw off your opponent from where your attack is coming from, but also in covering more ground.

As for self defense...Good question. My initial thoughts would to be use them in a situation where your attacker is a considerably distance from you, to cover ground more quickly and deliver a decisive head blow.

This is a very interesting post, because I thought that these three kicks were a pretty ubiquitous part of the Tang Soo Do curriculum. Almost everywhere I've seen has had some form of jump kick with a fake. Sometimes if varies on where it is introduced, but that is all.

I'm surprised that these weren't taught much where you trained.

I think the fake leg can serve many purposes. It can be an actual kick. It can be a kick that was blocked and is followed by another kick. It can also be used as a device for gaining height and covering distance.

These kicks seem like more of an offensive technique. I can see someone using them to charge in and catch someone off guard with them. Often when we practice Da Soo in Deh Ryun, I'll do that and force some nifty curse words out of the defender.

 

[MBuzzy]

It is actually where I'm training now that we don't do them much. Every other school that I have trained at has included jumping kicks very early in the curriculum - at least as an introduction. But so far, in 6 months of training in Korea, 4-5 days a week, we have only practiced jumping kicks twice....and both times, they were jump spin kicks. I am rather shocked by this. I do intend to ask him about it tonight, to figure out if that is just how he was taught or what his thoughts are.

I will definately let you know what the answer is - at least what I can understand without a translator!

 

[Makalakumu]

Good luck with your questions! Chinto Hyung uses these flying kicks, by the way, so these concepts may be considered to be advanced.

 

[MBuzzy]

Well - it took me a while, but I got an answer!

At least at my headquarters gym, the jumping kicks are not taught at the lower levels. They do not get into them until more advanced gup levels. Also - and I don't know if this is the organizational ideal or just my Sa Bom Nim, but he said that normal kicks are much more useful and the jumping kicks are more for show than for fighting.

Although, I can definately see a great many uses for them...he tends to lean more towards skipping kicks to cover distances or long stepping kicks. He teaches a great deal of fakes, but they are all more ground bases - throw a leg back quickly and kick with the other leg.

 

[jdinca]

We have the first two in our system. We call them the "Chicken Kick" and the "Chicken Wheel". Chicken because the fake looks like the move roosters make when they fight.

The fake serves a couple of purposes, the reaction to the low fake brings the attackers head down and forward, the second kick ends up coming in high to strike the face, or the side of the head.

The second purpose of the fake is to help drive the body up and get the hips as close to head level as you can, thereby providing more power to the kick.

As for training, the key point is for the fake to go up, and not forward. You want to use it to elevate, not close distance (although it can be used to do that also). The second issue is that they both be fast. If there's time to react to the second kick, then there's no reason to do it and you're in a more vulnerable position because you're not grounded.

We also do a "Snap Wheel" that is the chicken wheel version done on the ground. I've used it effectively in sparring situations.

 

[stephentsd]

My opionion of jump kicks with a fake is that they are not very useful in competition fighting. We teach people to do the fake when just learning the kick, like jump round house and then do a straight jump roundhouse with back leg and then develop on to front leg jump roundhouse. The part where the fake comes in, if your up against somebody with a good fighting brain then you'd have a side kick or other technique quickly in before you get your main kick out. Jump kicks i find are too slow anyway for competion fighting, but cirtain ones like jump back kick or jump back spinning side kick are good when your on the defence and stepping backwards away to just jump spin for your opponent to walk onto. I think theyre good to bring into a syllabus. But i find them not useful when free-fighting. Thats just my opinion and experience anyway!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

This thread was a bit different than I'd expected, but I'll put my three cents' worth in anyway.

(a) I'm a big fan of jump kicks. If I have the opportunity, I'll do a jump kick. The reason is simple; my knees aren't top-notch, even at my age, so pivoting my foot on the ground isn't as simple as I'd like it to be. Granted, I can still ground kick my foot off, but jump kicks afford me the freedom of momentary free turning with gravity the only force acting upon me (as opposed to having the additional counterforce of the floor pushing up on me). That said, here's

(b) what I thought we'd be talking about in this thread: Jump kicks as a fake. There are at least two different reasons to use a jump kick in a fight:
(i) Get height or distance against an opponent.
(ii) Look cool and intimidate.

Here's my third reason: (iii) Deception, and an easy way to avoid taking time switching feet.

What I mean by that is this: Say you have your left foot in front, like at the beginning of a usual sparring round. Your opponent comes in on you. You now have two choices: (1) hope you have enough room to execute a counter kick or punch that won't hurt you from the force of your opponent coming at you, or (2) Step back/to the side and counter. The first choice is what most people do; I've gotten hurt too many times that way. The second choice takes too much time, and leaves you making a passive move where you should be making an active one. My choice: (3) short hop/jump backwards to release a jump kick (front kick, round kick, side kick, whichever). You get your distance, you get your opponent when he least expected it, and you're now in a position to reverse the flow of the fight by taking the offensive (assuming you didn't just drop your foot!).

Putting the "fake" into this. Now, taking this concept, put yourself on the offensive side. You want to get your opponent to open up so you can attack freely. Your opponent has no inclination to do this. So, as upnorthkyosa has demonstrated, you fake him out. Front foot lifts, opponent drops hands to block, and you get a free hit with the back foot.
You don't even have to make it as big a motion. Lift the foot, and then, when you see your opponent dropping his guard, set the foot back down and jump round kick with the back foot. Keep varying your kicks this way, and you play a psychological game that works very well.

The other thing I was thinking about going into this thread was one of my more recent tricks: jump round kick to the face (the tricky switch mentioned above), then add a second kick with the same foot where your opponent is open. I usually make this a round kick to the gut. This doesn't have to be initiated from a jump kick, but it makes it easier, since the startup is deceptive and fast. I can't say I wasn't inspired by any particular Tekken fighter, but that's another story

(c) You kick high. Cool. You do let your arms get a bit too far away from you, from what the videos show, though. As someone who practices ee dan dul ryo chagi (and its 360-degree counterpart) vs. a 100-lb hanging bag, or whatever else is handy, as extensively as I do, I can see where your kicks get a bit awkward. I see the fake too, don't get me wrong, and you're certainly better than a lot of people I've seen doing those kicks. But the fake works better when there's not as much movement of the arms. Why? The same reason you get more power when you keep your arms in during the kick: faster rotation, better rotation, more ease of movement. Almost without exception, every time I let my arms fly when doing a jump round kick, I pull something. The first kick, the fake, has to come up fast, then retract as you turn your body the other way for the actual kick. Let your arms fly, and it's that much slower of a turn for your upper body.

I'm not saying I'm perfect at this either (reference my comment about pulling something...that happens a lot to me), though.

(d) In regards to the other kicks, I'm really liking that fake to jump side kick. That's gotta be murder on your hips, though, unless you really turn your hips over, and fast. I was wondering, at first glance, how this was different from the jump round kick; then I took a closer look and saw what was happening. A quick snap round kick fake to get them to lower their guard, and then turn right from that into a jump side kick to the gut/face/neck. Next time I get into class, I'ma practice that one.

Nice vids, upnorthkyosa. Tang Soo!


.....

(e) @MBuzzy: Your instructor's right in that jump kicks aren't as practical in a fight as regular ones. Look at traditional karate; all their kicks are to the shin, pretty much. They don't even do high kicks, which are, again, not as practical. If you can pull them off, bully for you, and much w00t and fanfare. Kick to the gut works just as well. In a real fight, a kick to the ka whan works even better

 

[stephentsd]

good points, i think though that the fakes as shown in the video wont trick and opponent into thinking the fake is going to be a kick. I think you make valid points with the jump kicks when you say jumping backwards, and how you say ypu only have one force against you and that is gravity. I'm sure you'd agree that there is a time to do a jump kick and when not and also a way a jump kick is executed.

I've learned since ive been in korea that a friend of Grandmaster Hwang Kee, who taught some other martial art, never ever taught jump kicks because he beleived theyre too slow. I think jump kicks can be done very fast if you train hard enough at them, and the realistic equation is there to suggest a jump kick is slower, everybody knows this, but people can get fast at jump kicks. Every body likes to see jump kicks they are impressive.

 

[IMP]

good points, i think though that the fakes as shown in the video wont trick and opponent into thinking the fake is going to be a kick. I think you make valid points with the jump kicks when you say jumping backwards, and how you say ypu only have one force against you and that is gravity. I'm sure you'd agree that there is a time to do a jump kick and when not and also a way a jump kick is executed.

I've learned since ive been in korea that a friend of Grandmaster Hwang Kee, who taught some other martial art, never ever taught jump kicks because he beleived theyre too slow. I think jump kicks can be done very fast if you train hard enough at them, and the realistic equation is there to suggest a jump kick is slower, everybody knows this, but people can get fast at jump kicks. Every body likes to see jump kicks they are impressive.

My view is that you don't really need to trick them into thinking the fake is a kick. For one thing, you don't need a fake, and second, in my class, at red belt you learn to make the fake into a front kick.

I also completely agree with the speed thing. Jump kicks don't need to be fast, but it looks better.

 

[Makalakumu]

My view is that you don't really need to trick them into thinking the fake is a kick. For one thing, you don't need a fake, and second, in my class, at red belt you learn to make the fake into a front kick.

I also completely agree with the speed thing. Jump kicks don't need to be fast, but it looks better.

Actually Ian, we don't start working on double kicks in the air until black belt. And then, if we do work on it, it's not for self defense purposes.

Lastly, if you really want to try pulling off a dubal kick when sparring, it has to be fast or it won't work. You need to really practice the technique and bring it to a pretty high level before you can use against people your own rank.

 

[mjd]

These kicks are common in TSD and many others, the practical use is another thing, but they are an attractive flare for the younger folks, us older guys like to stay on the ground.

 

[IMP]

Actually Ian, we don't start working on double kicks in the air until black belt. And then, if we do work on it, it's not for self defense purposes.

Lastly, if you really want to try pulling off a dubal kick when sparring, it has to be fast or it won't work. You need to really practice the technique and bring it to a pretty high level before you can use against people your own rank.

Thanks for clearing that up, but there's still one question. If it's purpose isn't self defense, what is it's purpose? Is it an attack? Or something completely different? Tang Soo Do is like that.