Jujutsu Gi Choke Video... You Did It A Wee Bit Too Much

[MA-Caver]

I'm not sure what exactly went wrong here but the instructor definitely wasn't paying attention to EVERYTHING that was happening.

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apologies if this has already been posted previously

 

[Steve]

Bow and arrow choke. Gets VERY tight.

 

[Gentle Fist]

yeah... well at least he didn't kill him

 

[MA-Caver]

yeah... well at least he didn't kill him

Yeah, well, at least it's an example of what NOT to do.

 

[Buka]

It's why you don't talk a lot when you roll, especially during submissions.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'm not sure what exactly went wrong here but the instructor definitely wasn't paying attention to EVERYTHING that was happening.

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apologies if this has already been posted previously

This is Angel Perez, with his younger brother Jimmy. Angel posts here (and on MAP - after being banned from Judoforum) as "Champ Pain" (formerly "Judo Champion"), although he's been quiet for a while now. And yes, it has been posted before (well, the original has, not this edit of it), by Angel himself, seemingly to brag about it (again, both here and on MAP). http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?96450-Sensei-almost-dies

Such a fun thread that was....

 

[Manny]

Now I realize why in some judo dojos chokes are not taught or at least not wihtout supervision. I don't wana star a flame here but it was a little irresponsable to perform that choke that way, the man could be killed.

I am not a judo man, but transpolate this for example to a TKD I think this thing could hapen for example if doin g full sparring a good roundhouse kick delivered with power to the head of our classmate can cause a bad KO and the results can be catastrofic, so the techs must be performed wiht safety using the safety headgear and controling the kicks to the head.

Just my two mexican cents.

Manny

 

[Steve]

While I don't know the specifics of this situation, this sort of thing does happen even with very knowledgeable, responsible instructors.

I posted the video below in another thread a few days ago (although it's been floating around for a while).

Honestly, I think this is a situation that should be avoided, but it's not THAT big a deal. It's a carotid choke, and the danger is minimal. I've seen far too many people take naps to get overly worked up about this.

 

[Tez3]

What Steve says is true, it's what is called a 'blood' choke where the blood is stopped momentarily as he says from the carotid artery, it's the same as fainting. Seen it quite a few times, no harm done. Door supervisors ( bouncers) call it 'necking' someone when they do it to calm a situation down (?) lol.

 

[oftheherd1]

In the link by MA-Caver, you can see at about 1:12, his brother's arm drop. Nappy time.

Never had this technique done on me, and don't particularly want it done. We train that as soon as we see an arm desend over our face, to lower our chin and begin a defensive move. NOW!

One of the more effective defenses uses the pressure points between the thumb and index finger of the opponent, as well as the pressure point at the upper end of the ulna. Those are used to remove the arm as you step back and under, and put the opponent in a hammer/wrist lock.

If that doesn't work, one should immediately try a knee-cap kick. This has the advantage if applied correctly, and in time, of causing sufficient pain to cause the opponent to release the choke. Or if not, then raising one leg will usually cause you to begin falling to one side, spreading the impact, as you fall down and begin dreaming. :uhyeah:

 

[Steve]

In the link by MA-Caver, you can see at about 1:12, his brother's arm drop. Nappy time.

Never had this technique done on me, and don't particularly want it done. We train that as soon as we see an arm desend over our face, to lower our chin and begin a defensive move. NOW!

One of the more effective defenses uses the pressure points between the thumb and index finger of the opponent, as well as the pressure point at the upper end of the ulna. Those are used to remove the arm as you step back and under, and put the opponent in a hammer/wrist lock.

If that doesn't work, one should immediately try a knee-cap kick. This has the advantage if applied correctly, and in time, of causing sufficient pain to cause the opponent to release the choke. Or if not, then raising one leg will usually cause you to begin falling to one side, spreading the impact, as you fall down and begin dreaming. :uhyeah:

I dont see any of that working. Tucking the chin is a good idea, but there are plenty of ways to fix that. Unless you have the neck of a bull, if I'm on your back I'm probably going to get a choke.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[oftheherd1]

I dont see any of that working. Tucking the chin is a good idea, but there are plenty of ways to fix that. Unless you have the neck of a bull, if I'm on your back I'm probably going to get a choke.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

That is certainly possible. If you have me down and are behind, I am at a disadvantage. Even if I am on my feet and more manuverable, I must act quickly and correctly with the pressure points.

However, if your hand and arm are on fire, you are more pliable than you might imagine.

 

[Steve]

That is certainly possible. If you have me down and are behind, I am at a disadvantage. Even if I am on my feet and more manuverable, I must act quickly and correctly with the pressure points.

However, if your hand and arm are on fire, you are more pliable than you might imagine.

Okay. So, if you have a blow torch and you're talking about actual fire, I'll cede the point.

But, if you're talking about using pressure points on my hand or arm, I am very confident that there is no place you can jab, poke, pry or bend anything on my arm that hasn't been tried literally thousands of times by hundreds of different people.

In the interest of avoiding a completely theoretical, what if discussion, I will try to be very explicit. If you have a competent grappler on your back, you are in deep doodoo. And if you're standing and you have a competent grappler to your side or back who is controlling your collar, arm or leg, you are also in deep doodoo and are very likely going to be on the ground pretty soon.

 

[elder999]

In the interest of avoiding a completely theoretical, what if discussion, I will try to be very explicit. If you have a competent grappler on your back, you are in deep doodoo. And if you're standing and you have a competent grappler to your side or back who is controlling your collar, arm or leg, you are also in deep doodoo and are very likely going to be on the ground pretty soon.

I'd say maybe even a halfway competent grappler, depending on your overall level of competence and mindset...:lol:

 

[oftheherd1]

Okay. So, if you have a blow torch and you're talking about actual fire, I'll cede the point.

But, if you're talking about using pressure points on my hand or arm, I am very confident that there is no place you can jab, poke, pry or bend anything on my arm that hasn't been tried literally thousands of times by hundreds of different people.

In the interest of avoiding a completely theoretical, what if discussion, I will try to be very explicit. If you have a competent grappler on your back, you are in deep doodoo. And if you're standing and you have a competent grappler to your side or back who is controlling your collar, arm or leg, you are also in deep doodoo and are very likely going to be on the ground pretty soon.

Different people react to pressure point application differently for sure. But the majority of people will be effected by pressure point application. If you are not one of those, so be it. Most are not immune. Against those, if I use my technique correctly, I have a couple or three seconds to defend myself. Beyond that, as I said before, no I'm not going to do anything but go to sleep.

 

[Tez3]

Problem with the video in the OP is that it's not grappling it's a demo so the guy playing uke isn't resisting. Best defence? Not letting your opponent get it on in the first place, it's one of the very few moves that I as a weaker female can confidently put on a strong man and know that it will work well.

 

[oftheherd1]

Problem with the video in the OP is that it's not grappling it's a demo so the guy playing uke isn't resisting. Best defence? Not letting your opponent get it on in the first place, it's one of the very few moves that I as a weaker female can confidently put on a strong man and know that it will work well.

No arguing the bolded part.. That is always best. When for some reason one hasn't been able to prevent that, one should hope for some other possible defense. Or just give up?

 

[Chris Parker]

Sure. But I gotta tell you, Steve's right about not relying on pressure points and pain compliance in a real situation. The effects of adrenaline are quite a major factor, and really do remove the pain of such tactics in reality. The way they feel in training, in the dojo, and in mucking around with friends is very different to the way they feel in an actual high adrenaline situation.

 

[Tez3]

Sure. But I gotta tell you, Steve's right about not relying on pressure points and pain compliance in a real situation. The effects of adrenaline are quite a major factor, and really do remove the pain of such tactics in reality. The way they feel in training, in the dojo, and in mucking around with friends is very different to the way they feel in an actual high adrenaline situation.

You see that in MMA fights, the chokes (and other techniques such as arm bars etc) come on a lot quicker in a fight too, whether you mean to or not in training people tend to put them on slower.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not exactly what I meant.... I was referring more the specific effects of adrenaline, and how it changes based on different situations/environments. For example, even in an MMA-style bout, there isn't the real fear for your life (well, there shouldn't be!), as you've had time to mentally prepare yourself for it, which has a profound effect on the type of adrenaline surge you feel, and exactly what it's effects are.

Tell you what, here's a story from Ellis Amdur, about taking a good, solid look at pressure points in a more realistic situation:

I honestly don't recall the story you mean. I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka. A very sturdy man - five feet, eight inches, and one hundred eighty pounds - all muscle. We were drinking a few beers at his house, and I decided to f** with him (he was my friend, after all) and try something out at the same time. (Actually, we'd had quite a few beers.) I turned to him and said, "You know, thanks to my studies in koryu, judo appears to me to be mere kid's stuff, easily defeated."
Y - "You shouldn't kid around like that, Ellis."
E - "No, I mean it. I'm now completely invulnerable to being choked out."
Y - "You may think that's funny, but you shouldn't say things like that! Some people could take it seriously and get pissed off."
E -"Oh, you don't think I'm serious then. Go ahead and try to choke me, then." My friend had a hot temper, so we were good to go. To make it even easier for him, I put on my kiekko gi top, lay on my back, and he put on a cross-collar choke. "Go ahead," I said. "Sorry to hurt your feelings like this, but you should know the deficiencies of what you were studying all these years."
He cinched on the choke and just as it was tightening, I took my knuckles and simultaneously pressed with all my might at the bottom of his floating ribs. (Note: The man was an expert, doing what he did best. He was relaxed. And drunk. Relaxed even more.) He shot completely over my head, and I shrugged his hands off my collar.
The man was devastated. He sat there with his head in his hands, saying, "I don't believe it. You've destroyed my life. So this is kyushojutsu! My judo is nothing." (We were very drunk, actually).
I had another beer, and had mercy on him. And I wanted to see if what my teacher (mentioned in the last post) was telling me the truth about kyusho and tsubo. I said, "Wanna try again."
"What would be the point?" he said. He was really hurting. If this had been a couple hundred of years ago, he would have had to give me his dojo. I would have let him sleep in the back yard with the maid. . . .wait a minute. That's not so bad! Anyway, to continue.
E- "O.K. Listen. Listen to me, brother! This is important! Imagine you don't know me. You know that statue of your father downstairs? You don't know me and I came into your house and broke it. Your dead dad's statue in pieces all over the floor. Then I laughed at your mother when she saw it and began crying. Then I molested your sister! I did! Imagining all that? Good. Now, c'mon. Choke me now. Choke me now!" Remember the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, where there is a bull in a field, and he turns color and smoke comes out of his nose and ears. Y was sort of like that - anyway, something was coming out of his nose at that point - and he got the "mount" and cinched on the choke. HARD. I used my knuckles again. It was like pushing into corregated steel. I started to go out, and I thought, "What the f***. Let's take it all the way." I spread my arms wide, and hit him with my knuckles right in the floating rib points as hard as I possible could. Once. Twice.
Fade to black. When I awoke, Y was pouring himself a beer with a relieved look on his face. "Thanks, Ellis. I was worried there for a second."
E - "Was I out a long time?"
Y - "Oh, no, not that. I mean, I was worried about my judo."​

(Originally posted at e-budo: ​

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24710)

Training and reality are very different... and MMA, along with all other sporting forms, are closer to training than reality, when you really get down to it. Oh, and in training I do tend to slap things like chokes on pretty damn quick! I just use a lot more control there...
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