JKD as first art?

[spook mma]

how many of you guys started martial arts by studying jkd first? as in, was this the first art that you took up and have just stayed with it throughout the years? or did you guys start off on some other unrelated art and just found your way to JKD as time progressed?

 

[Mormegil]

I don't know about unrelated, but I started out in Kali with a smattering of JKD in the curriculum. At this point I do Jun Fan JKD and JKDC (with a smattering of Kali).

 

[arnisador]

Not me--I studied many other arts first and still consider JKD an adjunct to my Modern Arnis rather than a first art.

 

[lost_tortoise]

I hesitate to write this as I know that it is not a popular opinion in my combat circles, but I would study a core art first. I don't think it matters which art, although Wing Chun or an FMA style might be your best bet, but definitely get about 4 or 5 years under your belt before "liberating" yourself. Why do I say this? Well, I have seen many come to Jun Fan/JKD and/or JKDC as their first art and not stuck with it. Many schools teach classes with a less structured approach that is not conducive to a beginner's mindset. Also, having a background in combat applications, terminology and biomechanics will dramatically increase your development rate in JKD. You have to have rigidity in a system before you can truly appreciate the liberation of JKD.


geoffrey

 

[spook mma]

Originally posted by lost_tortoise
I hesitate to write this as I know that it is not a popular opinion in my combat circles, but I would study a core art first. I don't think it matters which art, although Wing Chun or an FMA style might be your best bet, but definitely get about 4 or 5 years under your belt before "liberating" yourself. Why do I say this? Well, I have seen many come to Jun Fan/JKD and/or JKDC as their first art and not stuck with it. Many schools teach classes with a less structured approach that is not conducive to a beginner's mindset. Also, having a background in combat applications, terminology and biomechanics will dramatically increase your development rate in JKD. You have to have rigidity in a system before you can truly appreciate the liberation of JKD.


geoffrey

thats understandable, and in a way i guess i can agree. but this now leads me to ask the following question; what is a proper jkd curriculum? how is someone taught jkd? i understand that there are some core concepts that a jkd curriculum must posess, however, "my jeet kune do is not your jeet kune do". therefore, everyone is free to interpret jkd according to their standards, as long as it adheres to the core philosophy. and quite honestly, how does it differ if one trains under a jkd instructor vs the person who studies kempo for several years, then studies in muay thai, judo, and various other arts looking to fill the gaps in their core art? (and for the sake of this discussion i am hoping that we can avoid the whole mma is/is not jkd argument).

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by spook mma
thats understandable, and in a way i guess i can agree. but this now leads me to ask the following question; what is a proper jkd curriculum? how is someone taught jkd? i understand that there are some core concepts that a jkd curriculum must posess, however, "my jeet kune do is not your jeet kune do". therefore, everyone is free to interpret jkd according to their standards, as long as it adheres to the core philosophy. and quite honestly, how does it differ if one trains under a jkd instructor vs the person who studies kempo for several years, then studies in muay thai, judo, and various other arts looking to fill the gaps in their core art? (and for the sake of this discussion i am hoping that we can avoid the whole mma is/is not jkd argument).

The differance is to know JKD is to understand JKD. The traditional arts will not teach you what JKD stands for. It sounds like your assuming the trad. arts will teach the concepts of JKD, which they won't and it seems your assuming that you will automatically know what to differentiate between usefull and useless.

If Morei Ushiba said my Aikido is not your Aikido, would you think that you would be able to teach yourself Aikido? If you did, you would be wrong.

The problem is that too many people read too deep into the phrase "my Jeet Kune Do is not your Jeet Kune Do." It can be interpeted in many ways. The obvious interpetation (which is most often overlooked) is that Bruce knew that we are all differant and although we have 2 arms and 2 legs, we have differant bone structures and we move differantly and we think differantly too. The differances can go on and on.

So it is understandable that we will perform our technique differantly we will excel in areas of the arts that others might not but that does not mean that anything is JKD.

To achieve JKD is a process that takes us on a journey that when we reach our final destination, we will know it. But if your not sure, then you haven't arrived and if you think that you will teach yourself JKD without the guidance of someone who has arrived, then you will not arrive.

That does not mean that you will not become a great fighter. There are great fighters all around us. But that does not mean they they are JKD fighters. :asian:

 

[spook mma]

Originally posted by akja
The differance is to know JKD is to understand JKD. The traditional arts will not teach you what JKD stands for. It sounds like your assuming the trad. arts will teach the concepts of JKD, which they won't and it seems your assuming that you will automatically know what to differentiate between usefull and useless.

If Morei Ushiba said my Aikido is not your Aikido, would you think that you would be able to teach yourself Aikido? If you did, you would be wrong.

The problem is that too many people read too deep into the phrase "my Jeet Kune Do is not your Jeet Kune Do." It can be interpeted in many ways. The obvious interpetation (which is most often overlooked) is that Bruce knew that we are all differant and although we have 2 arms and 2 legs, we have differant bone structures and we move differantly and we think differantly too. The differances can go on and on.

So it is understandable that we will perform our technique differantly we will excel in areas of the arts that others might not but that does not mean that anything is JKD.

To achieve JKD is a process that takes us on a journey that when we reach our final destination, we will know it. But if your not sure, then you haven't arrived and if you think that you will teach yourself JKD without the guidance of someone who has arrived, then you will not arrive.

That does not mean that you will not become a great fighter. There are great fighters all around us. But that does not mean they they are JKD fighters. :asian:

i'm not arguing the value or necessity of a jkd instructor, my questions were simply to understand jkd a little bit better. and by no means do i plan on studying multiple arts, and then call it my jkd. but would it not be possible for a person to never have formally studied jkd at all in their lifetime, but rather chose to pursue the training methods that i mentioned in my prior post, and unknowingly follow the core beliefs of jkd? would the culmination of their training be considered jkd?

i guess to clarify a little bit better, jkd is a philosophy, so how is someone taught a philosophy? a person can be taught the various ideals that make up a philosophy, but by teaching someone these ideals, it would not make the student a jkd practioner. it would merely state that the student has been exposed to these values. in order for a student to become a practioner, would it not involve a deeper understanding and realization that the student could only achieve on his/her own??? Afterall, millions can say they are true believers of a certain philosophy, but not many can say that they are true practioners. this is of course true for what ever philosophy you choose to examine, whether it be jkd, communism, democracy, etc.

so, i guess keeping this in mind, how is someone taught to perform jkd??? we all agree that there are no jkd methods, only ideas. would a jkd instructor do nothing more that teach their respective art with their interpretation of jkd being the underlying philosophy?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by spook mma
i'm not arguing the value or necessity of a jkd instructor, my questions were simply to understand jkd a little bit better. and by no means do i plan on studying multiple arts, and then call it my jkd. but would it not be possible for a person to never have formally studied jkd at all in their lifetime, but rather chose to pursue the training methods that i mentioned in my prior post, and unknowingly follow the core beliefs of jkd? would the culmination of their training be considered jkd?

i guess to clarify a little bit better, jkd is a philosophy, so how is someone taught a philosophy? a person can be taught the various ideals that make up a philosophy, but by teaching someone these ideals, it would not make the student a jkd practioner. it would merely state that the student has been exposed to these values. in order for a student to become a practioner, would it not involve a deeper understanding and realization that the student could only achieve on his/her own??? Afterall, millions can say they are true believers of a certain philosophy, but not many can say that they are true practioners. this is of course true for what ever philosophy you choose to examine, whether it be jkd, communism, democracy, etc.

so, i guess keeping this in mind, how is someone taught to perform jkd??? we all agree that there are no jkd methods, only ideas. would a jkd instructor do nothing more that teach their respective art with their interpretation of jkd being the underlying philosophy?

Before "Jeet Kune Do the concept", was (Jun Fan Gung-Fu) "Jeet Kune Do, The art." Bruce did have a system and that system he taught. JKD evolved into "the concept."

But there are many out there who teach the original art, as does my Sifu. What they choose to call their art is another story. But the fact that originally there was an art explains my reasoning of learning Jun Fan first as a base art, then "expanding on your expanded version of Jeet Kune Do." Technically, all JKD are "expanded versions" of the original JKD. So it would be impossible to "expand" on it without the "original" being a part of the learning process.

This next statement of yours I do not agree with:

"so, i guess keeping this in mind, how is someone taught to perform jkd??? we all agree that there are no jkd methods, only ideas. would a jkd instructor do nothing more that teach their respective art with their interpretation of jkd being the underlying philosophy? "

JKD concepts is widespread. But after having conversations with some "senior" JKD fighters, I've been told that I'm one of the "fortunate few." They came to that conclusion based on the "original teachings" that I was taught by my Sifu. They don't see many Sifu who have held on to so much of the past.

Hence the argument of "who is right" and the "true" meaning of the "concept."

"TO ME," the true meaning of the concept is "decided" when you have "reached your final destination." Hence, "my Jeet Kune Do is not your Jeet Kune Do.":asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

spook mma,

This guy is well known for JKD and BJJ, its good reading and might answer your question.http://www.royharris.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=41

"What is JKD?
Someone recently asked me to define JKD to them. So I gave them this brief explanation of the training process. I hope this brings some enlightenment to you.



The first aspect of training in JKD is self-preservation. This is where you learn how to preserve yourself during physical confrontations. There are four phases of self-preservation training:

Phase One - A general conditioning and general awareness phase. 70% of the training is Jun Fan Kick boxing (Bruce' kick boxing methods). The other 30% is divided up between close quarter fighting, trapping, standing grappling, ground grappling, single stick training, single knife training, basic self-defense, mass attack training (2 on 1, 3 on 1) and environmental training. The goal during this phase of training is to develop each of the student's overall awareness of street fighting, with a major focus on Bruce's kick boxing methods. There is a lot of sparring in this phase. Students spar every class for 30 minutes. This phase of training should last 12 to 18 months.

Phase Two - This phase of training focuses specifically on Jun Fan trapping methods and close quarter fighting. Numerous drills from Wing Chun, Kali, Eskrima, Silat and various forms of Kung fu are incorporated into numerous trapping combinations. Students learn specific trapping methods for boxers and kick boxers, and specific trapping methods for karate and kung fu practitioners. Eventually, the training session lead up to a point where students will spar in the trapping range with gloves on . The students will still practice Jun Fan kick boxing, but instead of doing focus gloves drills, thai pad drills and heavy bag work, the students spar more intensively. Plus, the students will learn how to set up their kick and punches through the use of strategy (What Bruce Lee called the five methods of attack). This phase of training should last 18 months to 24 months (two years). The trapping phase of training is the heart and soul of JKD. It is a range at which most trained and untrained people feel uncomfortable. They either want to push away and go back to kickboxing, or close the gap and go to the grappling range. Trapping range is HOME for the JKD practitioner!!!

Phase Three - This phase of training focuses on the stick and knife fighting methods of the Philippine Islands. The training involves single and double stick training, single and double knife training, espada y daga training, long pole training and the use of the olisi palad and balisong knife. Students will still practice Jun Fan kick boxing and trapping, however they will do a lot more full contact sparring with a lot of protective gear. Student still practice Jun Fan trapping methods, yet now it is all sparring (no drills or technique) in trapping range with a lot of protective equipment. Plus, there will be a lot of weapons sparring with the stick and knives. This phase of training should last 12 to 18 months.

Phase four - This phase of training focuses on standing grappling and ground grappling, as well as the integration of all ranges. Once proficiency is achieved in each range, the student must now pit kicking against boxing, boxing against trapping, trapping against grappling, grappling against stick fighting, stick fighting against knife fighting, knife fighting against kick boxing, kina mutai (pinching, biting, slapping, spitting, poking gouging, jerking, etc..) against grappling, so on and so forth. This phase of training should last 18 months to 24 months (two years). This is the phase where all of the previous training is put together. The students now know how to flow from one range to another. They now know which range to fight in with the different types of opponent's. And, they know all this from experience. No one has to tell them what works for them and what doesn't!!!

By the end of the four phases of training, each student has hundreds of hours sparring in the kicking range, hundreds of hours sparring in the boxing range, hundreds of hours sparring in the trapping range, hundreds of hours sparring in the grappling range, hundreds of hours sparring with a stick and a knife. And, they have done these hundreds of hour of sparring against partners who were bigger, stronger, faster, more explosive, weaker, slower, some who had awkward timing and rhythm, some who were uncoordinated, some who were more experienced and some who were less experienced. Now they have this broad base of experience upon which they can confidently say, "I NOW KNOW, BY EXPERIENCE, WHAT WORKS FOR ME AND WHAT DOESN'T. Because of my experience, I can now apply what Bruce said by 'Absorbing what is useful, rejecting what is useless and taking what is specifically' mine".

Too many people want to apply the above saying from the beginning. They want to take the easy way out. They are too lazy and undisciplined to go out there and experience this for themselves. They think they have the education to determine what works for them and what doesn't, but in reality they don't. They lack the real time experience to make an informed decision. It is physically much easier for this person to study Wing Chun for a couple of months, move onto to Muay Thai for a couple of months, do a little bit of Jiu Jitsu for a year because they like it, and then cap off their training with 3 or 4 months of Kali training. What these people end up being is a jack of a few trades and master of none. They think they're doing JKD, but they're just doing their own thing. They have no clue what JKD is about.

JKD is about gathering a **** load of experience and learning from it. JKD gives a person a broad base of experience to learn from, grow and reach their full potential. JKD also gives a person the ability to express themselves. Additionally, it gives a person the ability to mix and match the different training methods, a chance to contrast and compare the differences and similarities. For example, what happens when a person mixes knife fighting and kick boxing? Well, you get a new form of kick boxing that will scare the crap out of most people. What happens when a person mixes Kina Mutai with Greco-Roman wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? You get a new form of grappling that very few have seen or experienced. You can now do the unthinkable fight. In a way it would be like combining the moves of basketball, with a jab from boxing and tackle from football. You'd have a new sport that would blow people's mind. I suppose you could call it baskefootboxball. Anyway, you get the idea.

Before I let you go, you must understand a few more concepts in the JKD training methodology. First, there are three components to fighting: technique, physical and mental attribute development, and strategy. Technical training involves learning the correct timing and placement of your body for each of the specific movements. (Unfortunately, this is all most people learn) The next level of training involves developing physical and mental attributes to fuel these newly learned techniques. Physical attributes, like timing, speed, power, endurance, accuracy, sensitivity, body mechanics, flow, explosiveness and flexibility, are the qualities that fuel your techniques. Techniques without physical attributes are useless!!! Mental attributes, like focus, concentration, determination, pain tolerance and the will to survive, are equally important to develop. They will fuel your physical attributes, which fuel your techniques.

Secondly, JKD training also involves an emotional aspect to the training regiment. Students learn how to control their negative emotions so that they may be able to think clearly during a physical confrontation. The instructor must surreptitiously introduce emotions into the training session so that the student can feel what it's like to fight while the emotions fear and anger run rampant through their body. Students must learn how to control their emotions during confrontations.

Finally, JKD training involves environmental considerations. For example, how does one kick box on a stairwell? How does one fight two people in close quarters like a bathroom stall or crowded nightclub? How does one fight a person from the driver's seat of their car? What does it feel like to grapple on hot pavement, or a dirty, dusty, pebble infested parking lot? You can theorize all you want about what you would do. But unless you've been there in training, you really don't know. It is one thing to spar in a sterile environment like a dojo or training hall. It is quite another thing to spar on wet grass in your neighborhood park. It is quite another thing to spar on a stairwell with five people.


I know I have go on and on, but do you see how JKD is a lengthy process designed to give each student a vast array of experiences? Experiences that will help them make informed choices in the future. Experiences that will one day create their own personal identity when it comes to their personal response to physical violence. Once a student finishes the self-preservation aspect of the training, he/she can move onto the self-perfection aspect of training. The self-perfection aspect of training is where a person places their personal signature on JKD. Based upon each person's body type and personality, each student will gravitate towards a specific area of fighting. Some may gravitate towards kick boxing, some may gravitate towards grappling and some may gravitate towards knife fighting. It doesn't matter though! Why? Because they are functional in all ranges because of their experience in previous phase training and all they are doing is adding what is specifically their own. That is why you have Bruce Lee student Dan Inosanto focusing his training on Southeast Asian martial arts (Kali, Eskrima, Silat, Muay Thai, Bando, etc..), That's why you have Bruce Lee student Larry Hartsell focusing on grappling. After learning the self-preservation aspect of JKD, you are encouraged to express yourself.

Getting through all of this stuff is like getting two Ph.D's. It is a lengthy process, but well worth the effort. Many people know of Bruce Lee and want to associate themselves with him, but when they find out about this lengthy process, they take the easy way out. They get themselves an A.A. Degree and proclaim themselves as Ph.D. JKD people. And then they poorly represent JKD because they just don't have the experience to back up what they say.

I have just scratched surface of JKD, but I hope this gives you a better understanding of it. Roy Harris"


Hope it's good reading for you.

 

[spook mma]

thanks akja, what you have to share is very interesting i know find my self in that awkward position where i understand more, but at the same time a lil bit more confused as well if anyone else has more to add, i think it could be rather enlightening.

(mods, sorry, i think this thread might have completely wandered off course )

 

[arnisador]

I often hear the argument that JKD isn't adequate as a first art--that you need another art first before it's really good for you.

 

[TonyM.]

The fastest fighter of any style I have ever encountered had seven years of wing chun training and four of JKD. Six years of wing chun in Manilla, one in California, three years of JKD with Master Lee and four with Master Insanto.

 

[Straight Blast]

The school I train at does not drill in the mechanics of kicks, I think this is a big disadvantage for students with no prior training. I started practicing kicks on my own because I feel my technical abilities were deteriorating. I am learning good footwork, closing, straight blast, angles, basically all the attributes. I just feel there should be more training and instruction in how to execute kicks with speed, power and technique. I don't know if this is a problem at other schools. My two cents Joe

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
I often hear the argument that JKD isn't adequate as a first art--that you need another art first before it's really good for you.

I think this is closest to my views on the subject. I trained in a system of CMA as a kid, then went to JKD. It was good and I liked it, but only after I took a break from JKD went to another system of Kung Fu, and trained seriuosly did I then go back to JKD and really undrestand and grasp principles. This may just be me being a slow learner, but I think it is valid. I think a core curriculum is a good start for JKD.

7sm

 

[James Kovacich]

I think it depends on who is doing the teaching regardless if the the student is totally new. A greenhorn in the Inosanto Academy would develop well but that same new student may not fair so well in a school a couple of generations downline from Dan because it may be so differant that it actually needs a base art.

I think it would be a waste of time if JKD only worked with experience from another art. At the same time, most of us learned after training in other arts.

My Sifu started when he was 8 in the '60's and has only trained in his fathers blend and now his blend of the Oakland JKD. So I do know that it can be learned as a first art.

But some will say it isn't an art at all.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
I think it would be a waste of time if JKD only worked with experience from another art.

Would taht really be so bad--an art for people with some experience? A graduate level program for people with a BS? I'm not so sure. Wasn't that common in the CMA--that people would study some generic 5 animal system before specializing in another art?

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
Would taht really be so bad--an art for people with some experience? A graduate level program for people with a BS? I'm not so sure. Wasn't that common in the CMA--that people would study some generic 5 animal system before specializing in another art?

I agree, I think the principles of reading your opponants moves, and the speed and accuracy needed to be skilled at JKD is something you need to pick up before going into JKD.

I'm not saying you can't pick it up in JKD, but you would have to be in a ver ybasic class that is teaching you that stuff, and then thats not really JKD then is it, thats a basic MA class before you start learning JKD principles.

Even in our Kung Fu program, you don't start learning 7* stuff until a few belts in. You start learning just basic stances, then some wah lum forms, a few generic mantis techniques, adn then later, after your in the advanced class, you start learning true 7* mantis techniques and forms and such.

I think to a degree, almost every school does this, so JKD is no different, I think its just a little advanced than most beginners are ready to handle, thats all.

7sm

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I agree, I think the principles of reading your opponants moves, and the speed and accuracy needed to be skilled at JKD is something you need to pick up before going into JKD.

I'm not saying you can't pick it up in JKD, but you would have to be in a ver ybasic class that is teaching you that stuff, and then thats not really JKD then is it, thats a basic MA class before you start learning JKD principles.
7sm

You just described a "loose" explanation of Jun Fan. there should be no division in JF or JKD. No "Original or Concepts Crews," just one JEET Kune DO Community, differant but one.

It should be learned as one another complimenting the other. Each are two halves of the "whole." One without the other is in my opinion not complete. The more JKD evolves it truly becomes less JFJKD and more JKD Concepts.

So if one only practices JKD Concepts. Are they really JKD practitioners? If so. Can they just teach themselves? Because if JKD is purely "conceptual" then "anyone should be able to teach themselves and to be "qualified" to pass on "their JKD."

To me, it dosen't matter what the world thinks. My intructors recognze "my truth in martial art" which I do not call JKD. Yet I am a JKD fighter. Thats the way I was trained.

But there is a differance in my eyes between a JKD as I was trained and a purely "JKD Concept" fighter which are one in the same. I think that one can be totally into "the concepts" and not really be a JKD Player.

Its just an opinion and everyone is entiteled to one.

I think that too many people "accept" what Bruce taught "right be fore his death" and "reject" too much of what led up to that part of the evolution.

if one is "able" to accept it "all," then they are on the right path. If not, then be ready to cast along side "all" of those who "preach it" without any real connection to it.

Except maybe in their head a "concept."

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
Would taht really be so bad--an art for people with some experience? A graduate level program for people with a BS? I'm not so sure. Wasn't that common in the CMA--that people would study some generic 5 animal system before specializing in another art?

There wouldn't be anything wrong with it at all "except" if a "first art" was a pre-requisite. Thats pretty much what I meant by that statement.

I like most came from other arts but I can see it from a point of view that some might see because my Sifu's "expanded version" is so close to being a a modified Wing Chun that I see the "value" in the old, that some just skip right over. Or in JKD lingo. They "reject as useless" or "discard it" until there is little resemblance of what once was. :asian: