Japanese: Tall= expensive?

[granfire]

I found one of the million CDs I got a few years back in order to learn Japanese (boo for living in the boonies)

The lesson is shopping (as if I needed that...ok, yeah, I would be shopping for souveniers) but is 'tall' and 'expensive' really the same word?
It would not be unreasonable, considering that the tall clothes are more expensive than the regular stuff...

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, well, yes, and no....

The big issue with dealing with other languages is that words are really simply ways of conveying concepts that are present in that culture or society, and while there are a huge number of concepts that cross cultures easily, a large number still have their own nuances and subtle details to them.

In this case, there is a Japanese term 高 which can be read as "Taka", or "Ko", and has the translation of "high". In the context of height, it then takes on the meaning of "higher height", which is the same as our word "tall" (you may consider it "upper height"), when dealing with monetary concepts, it's "higher priced", or "expensive". It also has connotations of "a larger quantity, or larger amount", as well as the idea of "building", or "raising". Then there's the idea of "high ranked", or "in high esteem". As with all Japanese, as it is only made up of about 24 syllables, the context, the other terms used in conjunction, and what you're talking about.

So while it does carry both connotations and uses in the ideas of "tall" and "expensive", they are only in context....

 

[granfire]

Thank you.

Makes it much clearer. I was just listening half eared to it, but 'tall' kinda stuck with me (one of my projects is a really tall kid, I think easily 6'2"-6'4")

So I was trying to build my sentence around 'Thiskidsanwa inchiban takai desu'

I think I got it wrong though...it's been a few years since I had a marginal use for my three vocabularies I retained.

 

[David43515]

Chris nailed it. It`s really no different than the way we use "high" in English. The thing you have to remember when learning Japanese (or any other language) is that it`s not English. I know that sounds obvious, but think about it. Lot`s of things just don`t translate directly. For instance the idea that Japanese sentences often don`t include the subject. They all have a subject (the person or thing doing the verb usually), but often it`s just implied instead of stated. Part of the reason is the use of polite language, using different honorific verbs for those above you and humbler ones for yourself. When you hear a sentence you usually know right away if they`re talking about themselves or their boss for example even though no names or pronouns are ever used.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What's 'tokson'? We used to say 'Tokson beeru, okudasai' which I thought means 'many beers, please.'

I have also found out decades after leaving Okinawa that 'baka' is not a nice word. We just thought it meant crazy. Takson baka.

And finally, we used to say 'go meh nah sai' to mean 'sorry'. But now I hear that's not really how you say you're sorry in Japanese.

Thanks!

 

[Sukerkin]

Well, Baka, in simple terms means "stupid" but, as Chris noted above, cultural norms can make a word 'feel' worse to a native speaker than it's more literal meaning.

Tokson I've never heard of - do you mean "takusan"? That means "a lot" which seems to be what you're after.

Saying "sorry" depends upon context. "Gomen" is an informal way of apologising if you did something wrong, "gomen nasai" is the polite form. There are other words for it too, such as sitsurei, zannen or ikan but I'll leave that to David to tackle, given that he is about ten gazzillion times more knowledgeable about this than I am .

 

[granfire]

well, try to call a certain populous 'stupid' ....

 

[David43515]

Well, Baka, in simple terms means "stupid" but, as Chris noted above, cultural norms can make a word 'feel' worse to a native speaker than it's more literal meaning.

Tokson I've never heard of - do you mean "takusan"? That means "a lot" which seems to be what you're after.

Saying "sorry" depends upon context. "Gomen" is an informal way of apologising if you did something wrong, "gomen nasai" is the polite form. There are other words for it too, such as sitsurei, zannen or ikan but I'll leave that to David to tackle, given that he is about ten gazzillion times more knowledgeable about this than I am .

Could you please tell my wife, Ryoko, how good my Japanese is? Because all I ever get from her is "I taught you that already. Why don`t you remember anything?"

Anyway Bill, I knew what you meant right away. Your spelling was off, but the pronounciation was okay.Anyone here in town would know what you meant.

Gomen Nasai= I`m sorry (Gomen is more casual like Sukerkin said)
Sumimasen = excuse me. It can be used to appologize for something minor, to get someone`s attention, and oddly enough to say thank you. (Kind of like saying "I`m sorry to put you to any trouble") One of the teachers I work with always says "I`m sorry" in English when he wants to thank me for something. It`s a carry over from this.
Moshiwake gozai masen is probably the strongest appology I know of. It`s like saying "There is absolutely no excuse" for my behavior or this situation.
Takusan means alot of something. Sukoshi means a little. I had an American friend with two dogs, one big and the other little so that`s what he named them. Taksan ans Sukoshi.
Baka means stupid, but it`s ruder here. Same with Ahou, which I swore was the English "A#$hole the first time I heard it yelled in an argument.


They use people`s names or titles more often than pronouns like he, she, or you. And "you" has different levels of politeness and familiarity. Generally I use anata to mean you. It`s pretty safe for most social situations. I can use omae or even kimi to my students because I`m so much older than they are, but I wouldn`t call my wife omae because it would make her angery.(It sounds like you`re talking to someone inferior to you). I could call her kimi though and she`d probably assume I wanted to get on her good side because I was being more familiar. And if something happened in the street and I wound up calling a guy teimei, there`s a good chance punches might fly.....even though all of those words simply mean "you".
That`s what I meant when I said you have to remember that each language is really different on it`s own. Alot of times either I or my students will say something that just doesn`t make sense to the other, and I`ll realize that we`re speaking one language but thinking in another. When I translate it back into the opposite language it makes sense again.

 

[Sukerkin]

Can't rep you for that very useful insight, David - I have to spread the love some more according to the board software

For those interested in Japanese language, I cannot recommend highly enough having a listen/watch to the Japancast output. I got to know (in the internet sense) Hitomi and Paul very well when they were getting Japancast going (I ran admin on their first site for a couple of years); they are lovely people and their 'casts focus on 'ordinary' things rather than the more formal/stilted side of tuition. As a bonus, Hitomi has a charming speaking voice ... I could listen to her all day even when I can hardly understand one word in ten (of Japanese that is ).

http://www.japancast.net/tag/learn-japanese/

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Could you please tell my wife, Ryoko, how good my Japanese is? Because all I ever get from her is "I taught you that already. Why don`t you remember anything?"

Anyway Bill, I knew what you meant right away. Your spelling was off, but the pronounciation was okay.Anyone here in town would know what you meant.

Gomen Nasai= I`m sorry (Gomen is more casual like Sukerkin said)
Sumimasen = excuse me. It can be used to appologize for something minor, to get someone`s attention, and oddly enough to say thank you. (Kind of like saying "I`m sorry to put you to any trouble") One of the teachers I work with always says "I`m sorry" in English when he wants to thank me for something. It`s a carry over from this.
Moshiwake gozai masen is probably the strongest appology I know of. It`s like saying "There is absolutely no excuse" for my behavior or this situation.
Takusan means alot of something. Sukoshi means a little. I had an American friend with two dogs, one big and the other little so that`s what he named them. Taksan ans Sukoshi.
Baka means stupid, but it`s ruder here. Same with Ahou, which I swore was the English "A#$hole the first time I heard it yelled in an argument.


They use people`s names or titles more often than pronouns like he, she, or you. And "you" has different levels of politeness and familiarity. Generally I use anata to mean you. It`s pretty safe for most social situations. I can use omae or even kimi to my students because I`m so much older than they are, but I wouldn`t call my wife omae because it would make her angery.(It sounds like you`re talking to someone inferior to you). I could call her kimi though and she`d probably assume I wanted to get on her good side because I was being more familiar. And if something happened in the street and I wound up calling a guy teimei, there`s a good chance punches might fly.....even though all of those words simply mean "you".
That`s what I meant when I said you have to remember that each language is really different on it`s own. Alot of times either I or my students will say something that just doesn`t make sense to the other, and I`ll realize that we`re speaking one language but thinking in another. When I translate it back into the opposite language it makes sense again.

Thank you, that's very helpful. I learned some phrases while I was on Okinawa without really understanding what the words were. Such as skoshi chimpo. I see now it was 'sukoshi' and you probably know chimpo.

I tried to get one of our interpreters to give me a really terrible curse; he kept saying there were no curse words in Japanese. Eventually he broke down and told me 'Anatano Ocansamwa Debesu', which he said meant 'your mother's belly button goes inside out.'

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Can't rep you for that very useful insight, David - I have to spread the love some more according to the board software

For those interested in Japanese language, I cannot recommend highly enough having a listen/watch to the Japancast output. I got to know (in the internet sense) Hitomi and Paul very well when they were getting Japancast going (I ran admin on their first site for a couple of years); they are lovely people and their 'casts focus on 'ordinary' things rather than the more formal/stilted side of tuition. As a bonus, Hitomi has a charming speaking voice ... I could listen to her all day even when I can hardly understand one word in ten (of Japanese that is ).

http://www.japancast.net/tag/learn-japanese/

I watched local TV in Okinawa and drank in bars. Saw lots of Star Blazers and drank lots of Kirin. Beero Okudasai and Hambaguru Okudasai were most often said, along with 'ichi ban', 'joto mata okudasai', and 'binjo okudasai'. And I love me some yaki soba.

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: A soldier drinking ... what is the world coming to? They'll be cursing next

 

[Bill Mattocks]

:chuckles: A soldier drinking ... what is the world coming to? They'll be cursing next

A Marine, thank you very much. Soldiers are...something else.

 

[granfire]

I tried to get one of our interpreters to give me a really terrible curse; he kept saying there were no curse words in Japanese. Eventually he broke down and told me 'Anatano Ocansamwa Debesu', which he said meant 'your mother's belly button goes inside out.'

LOL, yeah RIGHT!!
Japanese people don't swear! :lfao:

 

[Sukerkin]

A Marine, thank you very much. Soldiers are...something else.

:double chuckle: I was being 'inclusive', selecting the most generic of terms so as to cover the broadest church and give offense to none . I thought it the most diplomatic course presently, as an Englishman, to preserve all the good relations with other nations I can, given that our PM has essentially just told the rest of Europe to go take a running jump :lol:.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

:double chuckle: I was being 'inclusive', selecting the most generic of terms so as to cover the broadest church and give offense to none . I thought it the most diplomatic course presently, as an Englishman, to preserve all the good relations with other nations I can, given that our PM has essentially just told the rest of Europe to go take a running jump :lol:.

Yes, I quite understand. However, like the difficult-to-grasp nuance between England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, a Marine is never a soldier (unless of course he or she later joins the Army, which has happened).

Our Armed Forces come in three basic flavors. Army, Navy, and Air Force. I am leaving the Coast Guard out at the moment as their situation is a bit different. The word 'soldier' is not a proper noun, and it depicts only those who are members of the Army. The term 'sailor' describes those in the Navy, with the exception of the Marine Corps, which is within the Department of the Navy, but which has it's own command structure. The term 'airman' applies to those in the Air Force.

The Navy and the Marine Corps share a command structure at the very top; the Secretary of the Navy (a civilian) is in both of our Chain of Command. However, from that point down, the Navy and the Marine Corps diverge. We Marines (and 'Marine' is a proper noun, and thus, capitalized) fall under the command structure of the Commandant of the Marine Corps. Our traditions are Naval - thus, we use Navy terminology such as bulkhead for wall, deck for floor, and head for bathroom. But our rank structure is more similar to the Army - we have Privates through Sergeant-Majors and Lieutenants through Generals, not Seaman through Admiral.

The Marine Corps is intended to be an amphibious force, so our forte is deployment from naval vessels to shore. Our emblem is the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor. The eagle symbolizes the USA, the globe shows the northern hemisphere, and the anchor, interestingly, is fouled with rope, which quite literally means 'We of the sea but we are not sailors!'

The only generic term that would apply to all in the US Armed Forces would be 'serviceman' or 'servicewoman' or the odd-sounding 'serviceperson'. To refer to a Marine as a soldier is not an appropriate generic descriptor; it would be like calling a boat a car because one can't think of the make or model. We are not soldiers.

All meant in good humor, of course!

 

[oftheherd1]

A Marine, thank you very much. Soldiers are...something else.

Careful Bill!! You'll get in trouble.

It's actually curious to me to hear soldier used to refer to all service 'persons' by the news media. They usually like to bragg about always being most correct in their usage of words. What sounds even stranger, is to hear soldiers referred to as 'cough, cough,' Marines.

And not to hurt your feelings, but marine in Marine Corps requires capitalization. In other contexts it is only required capitalization by marines (or others trying show respect). And I have no problem with that. As I have said before, I admire the Marines for their upholding and practicing traditions, and their pride in being Marines, and dedication to mission. Airborne tend to be the same.

Not being argumentative, so showeth the American Heritage Dictionary (regarding the nouns Soldier and Marine), which is all I have handy here at work.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Careful Bill!! You'll get in trouble.

No disrespect intended, of course.

It's actually curious to me to hear soldier used to refer to all service 'persons' by the news media. They usually like to bragg about always being most correct in their usage of words. What sounds even stranger, is to hear soldiers referred to as 'cough, cough,' Marines.

I have often heard all servicemen referred to as 'soldiers,' but never heard soldiers referred to as 'Marines', so that's a new one on me.

And not to hurt your feelings, but marine in Marine Corps requires capitalization. In other contexts it is only required capitalization by marines (or others trying show respect). And I have no problem with that. As I have said before, I admire the Marines for their upholding and practicing traditions, and their pride in being Marines, and dedication to mission. Airborne tend to be the same.

Not being argumentative, so showeth the American Heritage Dictionary (regarding the nouns Soldier and Marine), which is all I have handy here at work.

Au contraire, mon frere!

The word 'Marine' when used to describe a member of the Marine Corps, is a proper noun by all rules, and is capitalized.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/marine

On the other hand, it was only by decree (and relatively recent decrees at that) which required the terms 'Soldier', 'Sailor', and 'Airman' to be capitalized by their respective services:

http://www.navycs.com/blogs/2008/07/12/sailor-soldier-marine-airman

May 19, 1994, the Secretary of the Navy, John H. Dalton, decreed the word Sailor when used in Naval correspondence and referring to Sailors of the U.S. Navy – Sailor will be capitalized. Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, in October 2003 and Air Force Chief of Staff, Gen. John Jumper, in May 2004 decreed the same for the words Soldier and Airman respectively. Marine (when referring to a person in the Marine Corps) is a proper noun and will always be capitalized.

Sailor, Soldier, and Airman are also considered proper nouns in this blog (I hope in your blog too). I think when you are referring to them in any article, blog, correspondence, print, or print media those words should be capitalized – if you’re afraid some English teacher may come and swat your knuckles, or you’re concerned the grammar police may attempt to arrest you, tell them these words are proper “respect” nouns and they need to follow the lead of the respective military service heads and update their grammar manuals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun

In other words, 'Marine' is a proper noun because it has always been treated that way; it's accepted and therefore proper usage to capitalize it, both from within the Marine Corps and without. On the other hand, the Army, Air Force, and Navy would prefer that the terms 'Soldier', 'Sailor', and 'Airman' be capitalized, but they make no such claim to their being proper nouns and thus required for correct grammatical use.

It's not my doing! It simply has always been this way. But abuses continue...sigh. I have more than once seen the Congressional Medal of Honor, the Congressional Gold Medal, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom all spoken of as if they were the same thing; the 'highest honor our nation can bestow.' However, only the Congressional Medal of Honor holds that distinction, and it can only be given by Congress to a member of our military; never to a civilian. The others are the highest civilian honor our nation can bestow. Try to explain that to a journalist these days, though. I read in an ABC news story this morning a sentence, "He going to get promoted." He going to? Excuse me? And it wasn't a quote, that was the text of the author's prose. Egad.