Israel & Lebanon

[michaeledward]

The low simmer has turned to, at least, medium heat.

Earlier today, Israel invaded Lebanese territory with tanks and troops. Refugees are fleeing into Syria. The United States is expaditing shipments of precision weapons to the battlezone.

It is not out of the realm of possibilities, that this is a proxy war between the United States and Iran.

It seems to me that these events are a direct result of the United States actions in Iraq.

And only Dennis Kucinich (and approximately two dozen co-sponsers) have the guts to petition the President to demand an immediate cessation of hostilities from both sides of the conflict, to begin negotiating a settlement.

Watching these events unfold has been terribly sad.

 

[mantis]

the US seems to like this war and does not want it to stop. it's not a result of presence in Iraq, but it's the rest of the plan. The plan that would result in a new map of the middle east.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is absolutely a proxy war with Iran. I suspect that it is designed to get them to retaliate and give us an excuse to get involved with Iran directly.

 

[evenflow1121]

Whatever the reasons behind it, it is pretty scary I am assuming that this will not end in two weeks like the media says and that there will prob be no peace negotiations. Last I heard, Lebanon stated it would fight along side Hezbollah if Israel invaded.

 

[michaeledward]

Didn't Lebanon recently hold elections?
Aren't elections the trademark of Democracy?
Aren't we (now) fighting in Iraq to bring Democracy to the Middle East?

And, if Israel "Invades", (which they have) doesn't every sovereign state have an obligation to fight against those who invade? So why wouldn't Lebanon fight against the Israelis?

I recently saw an article that stated Israel's battle plans were drawn up over a year ago, and were for a three week war. I understand the plans were shown to United States foreign policy officials a year ago.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I recently saw an article that stated Israel's battle plans were drawn up over a year ago

Most militaries and nations draw up all sorts of battle plans well in advance. I mean, Taiwan just carried out large scale exercises based on a plan of defense against a Chinese attack. Should China choose to attack next year, I don't think anyway's going to be too surprised that Taiwan already has a plan.

It's important to remember that Israel attacked Hezbollah because Lebanon did not follow through, because of lack of will or lack of ability, their requirement to restrain Hezbollah. Israel is not attacking Lebanon, they are attacking a group of people using Labanon as a base, which is an important distinction as Israel has no beef with Lebanon, other than that they did not keep Hezbollah from attacking Israel. But this was long in coming and the fact that Israel had battle plans for this eventuality shouldn't really be construed as anything sinister.

 

[michaeledward]

Israel is not attacking Lebanon, they are attacking a group of people using Labanon as a base, which is an important distinction as Israel has no beef with Lebanon, other than that they did not keep Hezbollah from attacking Israel. But this was long in coming and the fact that Israel had battle plans for this eventuality shouldn't really be construed as anything sinister.

Yes, all nations have contingency plans. But how many share their contingency plans with the United States Department of Defense? Apparently, our DoD is completely aware of what Israel had on its drawing boards. And now, we are sitting by, doing little to solve the problem, and quite possibly much to exacerbate the problem.

And, despite your claim that Israel is not attacking Lebanon, it appears that the Lebanese are being hurt.

The BBC reports that 'The UN's Jan Egeland said half a million people needed assistance - and the number was likely to increase. One-third of the recent Lebanese casualties, he said, appeared to be children. '

 

[Rich Parsons]

Didn't Lebanon recently hold elections?
Aren't elections the trademark of Democracy?
Aren't we (now) fighting in Iraq to bring Democracy to the Middle East?

And, if Israel "Invades", (which they have) doesn't every sovereign state have an obligation to fight against those who invade? So why wouldn't Lebanon fight against the Israelis?

I recently saw an article that stated Israel's battle plans were drawn up over a year ago, and were for a three week war. I understand the plans were shown to United States foreign policy officials a year ago.

There are always plans on the shelf, It would not surprise me if we have plans for North Korean and also China and Pakastan and even Cuba.

As to nations, Israel is also a religious country, and in the old testament it states that retaliation force shall be thrice the force directed at one.

So there plans have been what we have seen. If someone lobs a bomb they throw more bombs back. If someone hits them with a missile they scramble "F" type Fighter plans to bomb them back with multiple bombs or missiles.

The issue goes that someone remembers that someone has died so they take it personal and they place a bomb, which kills someone else so then it continues and continues.



I am not condoning killing people, nor any single policy only commenting that this is not something that is one day in the making. That this will not be easly resolved, unless there are lots of plans put into place to prohibit contact between people so they forget or die out. So it might take three or four generations for people to forget the personal reasons, and get it back to the religious or national reasons.

 

[Monadnock]

Hezbolla is to Lebanon as Hamas is to Palestine. Neither territory can control it's radical counterpart, so I'm all for Isreal taking the necessary steps.

I also like new maps...the colors are pretty.

 

[michaeledward]

Hezbolla is to Lebanon as Hamas is to Palestine. Neither territory can control it's radical counterpart, so I'm all for Isreal taking the necessary steps.

I also like new maps...the colors are pretty.

You are aware the Hamas was elected to the leadership legislature body in Palestine? I don't believe Hesbolla has been elected to anything in Lebanon. However, Lebanon did recently hold elections, and they did successfully, and relatively peacefully, remove the Syrian military from their country.

Doesn't the United States believe in Democracy?

 

[FearlessFreep]

Doesn't the United States believe in Democracy?

You are starting from a faulty premise. This is not a conflict between the government of Israel and the government of Lebanon. This is a conflict between the government of Israel and another group that happens to be based in Lebanon (which means that, yes, Lebanese non-combatants get killed) Of particualr importance is that their was already a UN resolution for Lebanon to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel and there is a small UN force in southern Lebanon that is supposed to be enforcing this resolution. It's that lack of effectiveness of the UN force and the lack of ability or will on the part of the Lebonese govt. that has les to Israel striking against Hezbollah targets in Lebnon. It's sad that this has happened to the Lebonese people in the area, but if the Lebonese govt and the UN had been more serious about stopping Hezbolla from attacking Israel, then they wouldn't have come to this.

All of this has nothing to do with whether or not Lebanon is a democracy or not or the opinions of the US on the govt of Lebanon.

Iran is backing Hezbollah, but they have been for some time. While Israel is a US ally in the area, Israel has proven they can be highly independent when it comes to their own self-defense. To extrapolate from the current actions of Israel in Lebanon as some sort of proxy war between he US and Iran based on the situation in Iraq is simplistic and paranoid and seems to have more to do with a desire to find fault with the Bush administration than any reflection on real events or their causes

 

[Monadnock]

You are aware the Hamas was elected to the leadership legislature body in Palestine? I don't believe Hesbolla has been elected to anything in Lebanon. However, Lebanon did recently hold elections, and they did successfully, and relatively peacefully, remove the Syrian military from their country.

Doesn't the United States believe in Democracy?

We believe in squashing terrorists, and should support anyone else who squashes terrorists.

All's fair in love and war.

The response is certainly gargantuan compared to the kidnapping, but is most likely overdue. Their history is longer than I can remember but we all know it's one big powder-keg over there.

 

[mantis]

We believe in squashing terrorists, and should support anyone else who squashes terrorists.

All's fair in love and war.

The response is certainly gargantuan compared to the kidnapping, but is most likely overdue. Their history is longer than I can remember but we all know it's one big powder-keg over there.

what's your definition of a 'terrorist' here? because it looks more gran than black or white in this instance.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I tend to defne "terrorist" as 'someone who intentionaly targets non-combatants who have no tactical or strategic value as targets other than the emotional effect their targetting will have on the enemy'

 

[michaeledward]

You are starting from a faulty premise. This is not a conflict between the government of Israel and the government of Lebanon. This is a conflict between the government of Israel and another group that happens to be based in Lebanon (which means that, yes, Lebanese non-combatants get killed)

So, this is like, if say, The United States has a conflict with al Qaeda, they start a war in Iraq ... where there is no al Qaeda.

How did that turn out for us?

 

[Cryozombie]

You are aware the Hamas was elected to the leadership legislature body in Palestine? I don't believe Hesbolla has been elected to anything in Lebanon. However, Lebanon did recently hold elections, and they did successfully, and relatively peacefully, remove the Syrian military from their country.

Doesn't the United States believe in Democracy?

Im confused here Micheal.

When it came to Iraq, and the people, and overthrowing the dictator... we went and were totaly wrong to get involved... shouldnt have gone there shouldnt be there... wasnt our war.

Now this nasty piece of work comes up, and we arent there, and we are wrong, we should be there, we should be helping mop up the mess, we should take action...

*shrug*

Guess I am unsure if we should or should NOT be fighting other peoples wars for em.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Im confused here Micheal.

When it came to Iraq, and the people, and overthrowing the dictator... we went and were totaly wrong to get involved... shouldnt have gone there shouldnt be there... wasnt our war.

Now this nasty piece of work comes up, and we arent there, and we are wrong, we should be there, we should be helping mop up the mess, we should take action...

*shrug*

Guess I am unsure if we should or should NOT be fighting other peoples wars for em.

Depends upon peoples political points of views and agendas on if we need to be there or not.

 

[mrhnau]

And, despite your claim that Israel is not attacking Lebanon, it appears that the Lebanese are being hurt.

When you hide your mortars in civilian populations, are you suprised that civilians are being hurt?

You are aware the Hamas was elected to the leadership legislature body in Palestine? I don't believe Hesbolla has been elected to anything in Lebanon. However, Lebanon did recently hold elections, and they did successfully, and relatively peacefully, remove the Syrian military from their country.

Doesn't the United States believe in Democracy?

Hamas is elected, and sections of Hezbollah do hold certain offices in Lebanon. Yes, Syrian influences were "removed".

Democracy? Suppose a democratically elected government takes up arms against the US and starts supporting terror and war against the US? At that point, we have moved out of a stateless organization (Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda) and moved into a state sponsored source of terrorism (Iran, Syria, possibly North Korea, Afghanistan a la Taliban). The only thing that has changed is we are targeting an entire nation rather than a small section of them.

Supposed Mexico start flying planes into our buildings. Can we not go to war because they are democratically elected? [sarcasm] Surely someone democratically elected can do no wrong. [/sarcasm]

Lebanon is a democracy, but they also have faced mandates from the UN to disarm Hezbollah. They have utterly failed to do that and have failed to secure their own borders from terrrorist infiltration. What I see Israel attempting to do is something Lebanon should have done years ago. Get rid of Hezbollah. More power to them. If Lebanon cares at all about the UN, them start following their mandates. Get rid of Hezbollah. If you can not, get help from the UN, or possibly even the US. I'm sure they would be willing to provide at least tactical support. It seems highly hypocritical that Lebanon is crying to the UN to get Israel to stop. Do they expect Israel to follow UN mandates when they are unwilling to do the same?

I'm sad for the civilian casualties and loss of infrastructure, however this is war against Hezbollah. They are not a sovereign state. You have to take the fight to where they are. Lebanon should do the right thing. Get the two soldiers back, kick out Hezbollah. Israel would withdraw in days. Fight over. Problem now is that they are likely not to get the soldiers back alive. they were probably driven over the border to Syria through the Hezbollah controlled Southern Lebanon. Hezbollahs hatred of Israel is so great they would rather see civilians and the government of Lebanon destroyed in exchange for a war against Israel.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing is for sure! If you put your hand's into a bee's nest you are going to get stung. Anybody (insert nation hear) involved in the middle east and their continuing conflict will get stung. What to do? I do not know! However, this will probably continue to go on for a long time. (or possibly even as long as human's are around)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[mrhnau]

Guess I am unsure if we should or should NOT be fighting other peoples wars for em.

Allow me to clarify hehehe

whatever the Republican elected (democratically elected I might add) president and congress does, its the wrong thing.

On a more serious side, I see us fighting wars in an attempt to secure our own country and interests. If terrorist from a certain group/country keep attacking us, wouldn't it be ridiculous to do nothing?

Sometimes we have allies who are attacked. Helping one country defend itself is what allies do.

Sometimes a region is under threat. Helping stabilize those regions are what some nations do.

As the sole remaining super power, we are in kind of an odd spot. If we do something, alot of nations complain of our interferance (Iraq for instance, and those in Iraq's back pocket a la Russia/German Oil for Food). If we do nothing, people complain (Sudan, Israel for now). You are right... it is confusing. I'm not a fan of world government, so I don't really look to the UN for any kind of solutions. They are utterly powerless and have no real backbone/authority it seems...