Is there only one angle for maximum "stickyness" ?

[mook jong man]

In my lineage , part of the reason for the practice of the Sil Lum Tao form is to find the "Optimum or ultimate angle " for your individual body the angle at which your arm is perfectly poised for defence and attack.

This is worked on in the first section of the form with the Tan Sau extending and then again with the Fook Sau / Wu Sau sequence.
In our lineage the arm is extended only to the point just before you start to feel other muscles getting involved and you feel tension starting to manifest itself.

Do you believe there is one optimum angle or do you believe there is room for a couple of degrees here and there either way.
I'm starting to believe that if it is not one angle , then it certainly must be confined to a very small range of angles.

What got me thinking about this was today while doing Chi Sau with a student I started to experiment with my angles.
I do so love to pull this system apart and see how it works and put it back together again.

Anyway , so at first I brought my angles in very close , and immediately found a lot of pressure being exerted on my triceps and shoulders and just a feeling of using a lot of effort in general.

Next I extended the angles and had them a lot further out from my body than what I would normally , the pressure came off the triceps and shoulders right away.
But what also happened is that I was losing the ability to stick to his wrists and felt very vulnerable to being struck and not to mention being steered around by having such long levers out there .

Then I brought the angles back into where I think they should be , and immediately it was no effort to maintain the angles , as the forces were spread properly over the whole arm and I had maximum stickyness again in controlling his wrists.

I think there is a very narrow band of angles that you have to stay inside of and once you stray out of that in either direction then you are starting to lose effectiveness in properly sticking and your ability to withstand force.

Try it out yourself , I'm a big believer in sometimes you have to do things the wrong way , so that you know what the right way feels like.

 

[cwk]

I'd agree with you, there is a very narrow band of angles although I'd be quick to point out that the "optimum" angle will differ slightly depending on what technique you're using, your position in relation to your opponent, your stance,etc.
using the basic punch as an example, if I was square on to my opponent I'd keep my elbow in and down to aid in cutting in to the centre. But If I was in a a position where turning to face would be too slow, I'd turn my centre away from them and strike straight down my shoulder line ( side body), not bothering about my elbow position.
I think a lot of people would say having the elbow in is the optimum angle for the punch, but for what situation?

 

[cwk]

Sorry, I just re-read your post and realized you were specifically talking about sticking. DUH!!
Ignore my last post,I've had a hard day.
I agree, there is a very narrow band of angles when it comes to sticking. Try to do a huen sao with an almost fully stretched out arm.

 

[zepedawingchun]

In theory, maybe only one angle is wanted or needed. But is reality, it may vary, depending on the angle of your opponents attack, amount of pressure received, or even size of the attacker. There are so many different variables, it's almost impossible to cover them all, so a generic position is used to try to cover all the bases, and it is then adapted to the situation.

 

[chinaboxer]

here is a simple way to find roughly your angle, extend your arms and fingertips until just your middle finger just touches a wall, then take a half step forward and allow your arms to bend. i call this "medium range" since it's between traditional boxing and grappling ranges. which comes out to be about 70 degrees for me.

like Mook, i've put alot of thought into this position and why there seems to be such a small margin of effectiveness, give or take a few degrees. why is that? i wondered, but then i remembered something my Okinawa Te instructor told me a very long time ago, he said that everyone's forearms are roughly the same length from elbow to wrist, no matter what their height is. so this could be one of the keys to why 70 degrees seems to work to get the optimal "stickiness" that we all refer to.

 

[Eric_H]

To answer the OP: No.

Remember, stick is a defensive maneuver - we as WC people don't look to stick, we look to hit. Stick is what happens when they put our hit in check or we need to put them in check.

How you stick depends on your leverage, facing, angle and tool. You can stick anywhere and it is situation dependent.

 

[mook jong man]

I usually go by this rule of thumb , have the elbow positioned approximately two fists distance away from the body.

But to me its a bit like how far to sink your weight down in the stance , I tell my students to sink down just far enough so that as they look down , their knees are just over their toes.

But that is only a rough guide , too far down and mobility is lost , too high up and stability and the ability to generate power is compromised.

So with slight differences in individuals physiology the practitioner will only be able to find their own ultimate angle or how far to sink down even , via a long process of trial and error , making an adjustment here and a adjustment there.
Or in other words just TRAINING.

 

[yak sao]

The angle I was taught in WT is from a 90 degree lan sau position, extend the forearm out another 45 degrees, putting you at 135 degrees.

 

[mook jong man]

To answer the OP: No.

Remember, stick is a defensive maneuver - we as WC people don't look to stick, we look to hit. Stick is what happens when they put our hit in check or we need to put them in check.

How you stick depends on your leverage, facing, angle and tool. You can stick anywhere and it is situation dependent.

I would have to disagree that sticking is used in defence only , while it is true that you should only engage your Chi Sau skill when your strikes are obstructed or otherwise spoiled
sticking can be used very aggressively to attack the stance of the opponent and keep him off balance and open him up to further striking .

Indeed it is possible to 'stick' or in other words control his limbs while in the process of striking.

It's a bit like where people say that Bong Sau is a defending move only used to turn away force , in our lineage it can also be used as an attacking move to off balance the opponent and open up his structure to striking .

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

The body by design is in strong, stable configurations in 45 degree increments. Depending on your activity, objective and overall posture, your optimal angles of action change.

 

[mook jong man]

I would argue that the configuration of your arm will certainly change depending on the situation , elbow pointing down down , out to the side or whatever.

But what I'm getting at is that the angle of the arm itself the amount of degrees between the upper arm and forearm will and should remain relatively fixed.
Often times people will say " Well it depends on what you want to do" and I would say well no it doesn't.

I can think of maybe only one instance where you would willingly collapse your angle , and that would be to perform an elbow strike.
To my way of thinking , maintaining the proper angle of the arms is akin to having a shield out in front of you , and one of the functions of Chi Sau is to learn to perfect that shield.

If your angles do collapse under pressure then they were probably too close to your body to begin with , or as is more often the case you probably should have pivoted to dissipate the force acting on your arms and redirect it off to the side.

 

[tenzen]

2 words immovable elbow.

 

[Eric_H]

I would have to disagree that sticking is used in defence only , while it is true that you should only engage your Chi Sau skill when your strikes are obstructed or otherwise spoiled
sticking can be used very aggressively to attack the stance of the opponent and keep him off balance and open him up to further striking .

Indeed it is possible to 'stick' or in other words control his limbs while in the process of striking.

It's a bit like where people say that Bong Sau is a defending move only used to turn away force , in our lineage it can also be used as an attacking move to off balance the opponent and open up his structure to striking .

No disagreement - as I said if they put your hit in check, you have to stick (they've stuck to you). That's when you go to control them. If they don't engage you and you just hit them, no extra control necessary.

 

[mook jong man]

Just while we're on this angles tangent , I've found a great way to test peoples angles is using a Thai pad.
Previously I just used to pad up my arms and swing at them , but I think I was starting to accumulate a bit of nerve damage.
But the Thai pad is great , it adds a lot of weight to your arm and is very well padded , so you can slam the pad as hard as you can into their arms without worrying about hurting yourself.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think an easier way to look at what is being discussed is to address the distance you keep between you and your opponent. So, once you guys figure out proper weapon angles. you will find the dimensional stage of action with which you need to fight. Then you can just say to the student, "Get closer! You are reaching." Etc.
Sean