Is Stretching a Waste of Time?

[SenseiBear]

gkygrl posted a question about stretching machines - and in my response I made a comment along the lines of: "If I can't do a Martial Art movement cold, I can't do it."

At some point in my training, I decided that if I needed to spend time warming up and stretching out to adequately execute a technique, then it was a technique I would not be able to do (or not be able to do without injury) when the chips were down... That if something was going to be useful for self defense, I had to be able to just do it cold off the street... Cause that is when it will be needed.

What are others thoughts on this?

 

[Big Don]

At my dojo, we rarely (three whole times last YEAR) stretch as a group. My sifu's rationale:
the guy that wants your wallet, isn't gonna give you five minutes to stretch out first.
My opinion: This is where your overall physical conditioning comes into play.

 

[MBuzzy]

Everything you say is true......if you can't do it without stretching, it isn't useful in self defense.

But, the stretching that most people do is not to improve their ability to do a technique. Stretching should be done mainly to prevent injury. If you are doing an hour long workout with a lot of taxing movement - especially if you're doing high kicking - warming up and stretching your muscles makes a big difference in preventing injury. All of the times that I've badly pulled a muscle have been times that I didn't stretch.

If a guy is stealing my wallet, I couldn't care less if I pull a muslce, I'll hit him where I need to and worry about my injuries later.

 

[Kacey]

In the short term - no. I would not defend myself with techniques I couldn't do cold. What are you going to do - stop an attacker and say "wait, I have to stretch before I defend myself" :lol:

In the long term - yes. I am much more flexible now than I was when I started - so there are more techniques I can perform cold, because my overall flexibility is better than it was.

 

[gkygrl]

My opinion would be stretch for regular health benefits -- not just to do a technique. I would think you would want to make flexibility a part of your life.

In a real world situation, I would want to know what kind of physiological effects adrenaline has on muscles. The "fight or flight" response must have an interesting physiological effect on muscles. You always read about "strength" ... but I wonder if flexibility is added in the mix???

As long as you have what you need to fight if you have to ... or flight if you so decide.

 

[exile]

Everything you say is true......if you can't do it without stretching, it isn't useful in self defense.

But, the stretching that most people do is not to improve their ability to do a technique. Stretching should be done mainly to prevent injury. If you are doing an hour long workout with a lot of taxing movement - especially if you're doing high kicking - warming up and stretching your muscles makes a big difference in preventing injury. All of the times that I've badly pulled a muscle have been times that I didn't stretch.

If a guy is stealing my wallet, I couldn't care less if I pull a muslce, I'll hit him where I need to and worry about my injuries later.

In the short term - no. I would not defend myself with techniques I couldn't do cold. What are you going to do - stop an attacker and say "wait, I have to stretch before I defend myself" :lol:

In the long term - yes. I am much more flexible now than I was when I started - so there are more techniques I can perform cold, because my overall flexibility is better than it was.

My opinion would be stretch for regular health benefits -- not just to do a technique. I would think you would want to make flexibility a part of your life.

In a real world situation, I would want to know what kind of physiological effects adrenaline has on muscles. The "fight or flight" response must have an interesting physiological effect on muscles. You always read about "strength" ... but I wonder if flexibility is added in the mix???

As long as you have what you need to fight if you have to ... or flight if you so decide.

All good points. MB's central observation, that you're not stretching for technique execution so much as to minimize wear-and-tear in a prolonged training situation, is the key idea. And the idea that over time, your stretching prep will translate into an overall-better level of flexibility, identifies the true payoff of all that stretching. That said, though, I think it's also important to make sure that you are doing not just static stretching, but non-ballistic dynamic stretches as well. They provide a transition from static stretches on the floor to the kind of explosive-burst movements that are so characteristic of MAs. Thomas Kurz's work cites evidence that going from static stretches to full dynamic motion is both anatomically and neurophysiologically a bad idea, and I tend to think he's got a very good take on stretching practice...

 

[FearlessFreep]

The stress on your body from one kicks is different than the stress on your body from a hundred kicks. I mean, pro athletes stretch before a game and all they are doing is running and jumping.

But there also ways of stretching that will increase your general flexibility in any situation.

As Mentioned Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurtz

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

What a great thread! And great responses too!

I'm one who believes that when it comes to street defence you only need to have general flexibility, the ability to perform certain strikes and low kicks as the case may be. When it comes to more traditional you perform dozens sometimes hundreds of kicks and you need to have good overall flexibility to perform and to help recuperate from these wonderful workouts.

 

[Doc_Jude]

In the short term - no. I would not defend myself with techniques I couldn't do cold. What are you going to do - stop an attacker and say "wait, I have to stretch before I defend myself"

In the long term - yes. I am much more flexible now than I was when I started - so there are more techniques I can perform cold, because my overall flexibility is better than it was.

There you go. Good post. No one gets a chance to stretch before a mugging, unless of course you're lucky enough to get mugged on your way home from the dojo/dojang/kwoon/gym/park. However, there are folks that can pull off some pretty crazy stuff when cold. Work towards that.

 

[green meanie]

I never stretch but I give my students time to do an individual stretch prior to getting started if they would like to do so.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

gkygrl posted a question about stretching machines - and in my response I made a comment along the lines of: "If I can't do a Martial Art movement cold, I can't do it."

At some point in my training, I decided that if I needed to spend time warming up and stretching out to adequately execute a technique, then it was a technique I would not be able to do (or not be able to do without injury) when the chips were down... That if something was going to be useful for self defense, I had to be able to just do it cold off the street... Cause that is when it will be needed.

What are others thoughts on this?

Developing flexibility is what allows you to do those movements "cold." I won't get into a long winded discussion about permanently elongating ligaments or reshaping joint surfaces unlss you are interested.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

All good points. MB's central observation, that you're not stretching for technique execution so much as to minimize wear-and-tear in a prolonged training situation, is the key idea. And the idea that over time, your stretching prep will translate into an overall-better level of flexibility, identifies the true payoff of all that stretching. That said, though, I think it's also important to make sure that you are doing not just static stretching, but non-ballistic dynamic stretches as well. They provide a transition from static stretches on the floor to the kind of explosive-burst movements that are so characteristic of MAs. Thomas Kurz's work cites evidence that going from static stretches to full dynamic motion is both anatomically and neurophysiologically a bad idea, and I tend to think he's got a very good take on stretching practice...

I have Kurz' book and have read it from front to back...more than once...to say the least!! A very good book with some of the best info out there on flexibility and stretching development. It's amazing how so many sports(and martial arts) do the wrong sequence of stretching!

 

[FearlessFreep]

I have Kurz' book and have read it from front to back...more than once...to say the least!! A very good book with some of the best info out there on flexibility and stretching development. It's amazing how so many sports(and martial arts) do the wrong sequence of stretching!

How many times do you see people come into class and start immediately static stretching before class?

 

[punisher73]

Especially with beginning students I think that stretching is important to help them start to establish a body/mind link. When they are stretching the can become more aware of what muscles are responsible for moving and balance and they can become more aware of how the muscles are interconnected.

I do believe though that when the adrenaline hits your muscles are optimally primed for what they are trained to do, and if that means you are very flexible when warmed up they are ready for that task.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I never stretch but I give my students time to do an individual stretch prior to getting started if they would like to do so.

YOU NEVER STRETCH? Huh.

 

[bdparsons]

No. As you get older you'll understand why.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[bigfootsquatch]

How many times do you see people come into class and start immediately static stretching before class?

I think most of us see static passive/relaxed stretches without ANY sort of warm up in most MA schools, Physical Education and so on. NO dynamics whatsoever....usually its relaxed before warmup and relaxed at the end. Basically making the muscles sleepy before waking them up in the workout then developing flexibility without any strength gains.

For anyone interested; I would suggest Kurz's recommended routine:

Before workout:
marching/jogging and joint rotations, dynamic stretching, NO BALLISTIC

Actual workout

After workout
isometric(static passive) and any weights if used at all AND/OR relaxed stretches, march in place/jog/jump rope/jumping jacks

Yes this adds time to your workout, but PROPERLY developing flexibility is as important as practicing the technical part of the art.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I dont think I've seen much static(passive or active) stretching before class. What I usually see are relaxed stretches without any sort of warm up. NO dynamics whatsoever....usually its relaxed before warmup and relaxed at the end. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but after reading up on stretching I would suggest Kurz recommended routine:

Before workout:
marching/jogging, joint rotations, dynamic stretching,

After workout
isometric(static passive) and any weights if used at all AND/OR relaxed stretches, march in place/jog/jump rope/jumping jacks

Yeah, my pattern, which I take care of myself before class, is to do some joint rotations (starting at wrists and ending at knees or ankles), then something to get the blood going (jumping jacks, running, squats) then dynamic stretches, then I'm ready for class and it doesn't matter what the class or instructor does...

Actually, I try to remember to do that before I start my day A good morning stretching routine will make a world of difference to your flexibility...

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Yeah, my pattern, which I take care of myself before class, is to do some joint rotations (starting at wrists and ending at knees or ankles), then something to get the blood going (jumping jacks, running, squats) then dynamic stretches, then I'm ready for class and it doesn't matter what the class or instructor does...

Actually, I try to remember to do that before I start my day A good morning stretching routine will make a world of difference to your flexibility...

Yes, I'd suggest stretching every morning, but I can't suggest what I don't do hahaha. Flexibility is every bit as important as the martial art. You may be the most knowledgeble person on the planet, but if your body can't execute the techniques then what?

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Yeah, my pattern, which I take care of myself before class, is to do some joint rotations (starting at wrists and ending at knees or ankles), then something to get the blood going (jumping jacks, running, squats) then dynamic stretches, then I'm ready for class and it doesn't matter what the class or instructor does...

Actually, I try to remember to do that before I start my day A good morning stretching routine will make a world of difference to your flexibility...

Sorry for the double posting guys! I believe relaxed stretches fall under static passive, which is why I re-edited my post. Either way, we seem to agree on the proper sequencing for stretches. Why do you think most physical activities(sports, martial arts) seem to get them out of order?