Is Kuntao Indonesian or Chinese?

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Friends,

I am now editing Mr. Khu Chen Yong's book about Kuntao Macan. In this book, he is very insistent to call Kuntao an Indonesian martial art with Chinese influence. He does not want it to be considered as "Kungfu" because he said it has evolved into something different than the original Kungfu it was derived from, even though many similarities still exists.

I would like to hear your opinions about this. Do you think a transplanted martial art a product of the new country, or still a product of old country? Is Brazilian Jiujitsu a Brazilian art, or just a varian of Japanese Jujutsu? Is Kuntao an Indonesian art, or just a variant of Chinese Southern Kungfu? What do you think?

The deadline for this book is March 2006 so I will have plenty of editing time. I hope there will be some people interested. After all, there aren't many books about Kuntao around.

 

[Flying Crane]

By way of comparison, Ed Parker's Kenpo is an American/Hawaiian art, but it came from a Japanese art with origins in China. It changed at each stage and is now something distinct from its origins. Call it what you will, acknowledge the fact that it is now different, but I think it is important and appropriate to recognize its origins, for those who are interested in such things.

 

[Henderson]

Kuntao is derived from Chinese arts. But it is Indonesian.

 

[GuruJim1]

From my understanding about Kuntao is an Indo-Chinese art. When the Chinese started to populate Indonesia through the trade routes the Chinese found that their Chaun Fa (Kung Fu) was little match for the Indonesian Pentjak-Silat. The Chinese reformed the art to deal with an opponent that doesn't care about fighting with honor as they where taught. The Indonesian fought to win, that was their honor. Over the years Silat found its way into Kuntao. Some of my teachers will still call it Chaun Fa. As I was taught the once the art was reformed into Kuntao it became an Indonesian martial arts with the influence comes from China. No matter how the art was formed it is a very effective fighting art. This is just my two cents.

 

[Jerry]

Yes.

There are arts referred to as "Kuntao" in southern China. There are also arts referred to as Kuntao in Indonesia, Malaysia, the Phillipines, Borneo, and Singapore. (there are occassionally alternate spellings).

In Indonesia, the term is generally used to discuss the arts decended from the Chinese who immigrated to Indonesia.

 

[arnisador]

In my opinion, kuntao refers to an art of Chinese origin but that has been further developed, and is now practiced, in Indonesia, Malaysia, or the Philippines. So, I'd say that it is indeed an Indonesian system in your case...of Chinese lineage. If it was still chinese, it'd be called Kung Fu (or kuen or whatever) instead.

But, see this thread (esp. the second page) for a contrary opinion.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Yes.

There are arts referred to as "Kuntao" in southern China. There are also arts referred to as Kuntao in Indonesia, Malaysia, the Phillipines, Borneo, and Singapore. (there are occassionally alternate spellings).

In Indonesia, the term is generally used to discuss the arts decended from the Chinese who immigrated to Indonesia.

I think this is very correct. Mr. Khu was a 3rd generation Chinese immigrant who has become an Indonesian citizen. I think that's why he insist that this art is Indonesian with Chinese influences.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

BTW I am very happy with the responses here. I am sure Mr. Khu will be very happy to know that many people agrees with him

 

[Wes Tasker]

I would imagine that part of the answer is determined by what criteria we're using to determine if Kuntao is Indonesian or Chinese. For example, if you practice say Hung Gar here in the US, and your teacher is from Hong Kong, and the style has not changed - is Hung Gar now considered American because of the geography where it is practiced? I am sure that there are some Kuntao systems practiced in Indonesia that have been preserved enough to say that they are still Chinese systems that just happen to be practiced on a different continent. I've had the privelage of showing some of the Kuntao that I have learned to teachers of traditional Chinese arts both here in the US and in China. They remarked that it looked to them like "old style martial arts" or lao quan. I'm sure there are also some Kuntao systems in Indonesia that have assimilated some Silat and other styles where they can no longer claim to be "pure" Chinese styles. Regarding arnisador's point - the term Kuntao is Hokkien Chinese for Chinese martial arts in general. The fact that the arts are called that in Indonesia really has nothing to do with their being Indonesian or not. I think it's not quite correct to say that if it was still Chinese it would be called Kung Fu. First off, Kung Fu just means "work effort" and can be used to describe skill etc. in any endeavor. And secondly, the fact that they are called Kuntao has more to do with linguistics as pursuant to my point about the word being of Hokkien origin. I have heard the Chinese arts practiced in Indonesia refered to as "Lao Quan, Wu Kung, and Quan Fa" as well. It all depends on what language the person speaks who is describing them. I think that Kuntao just gained parlance for some reason or other - perhaps more people spoke Hokkien at the time of it gaining prominence?????

-wes tasker

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

the fact that they are called Kuntao has more to do with linguistics as pursuant to my point about the word being of Hokkien origin. I have heard the Chinese arts practiced in Indonesia refered to as "Lao Quan, Wu Kung, and Quan Fa" as well. It all depends on what language the person speaks who is describing them.

interesting point here. Let me ask Mr. Khu about the meaning of the Hokkien word "Kuntao". When someone shows me the kanji, my teacher said it means "fist fight". But my teacher doesn't speak chinese so I think he might be mistaken. I am sure Mr. Khu will be more accurate than him.

thank you for bringing a good discussion topic!

 

[Wes Tasker]

Sir-

Although I am no expert in the Chinese language and its many dialects, I was under the impression that the characters are the ones for "fist" and "way". In Mandarin I believe it would be Quan Dao, and in Cantonese it would be Kuen Do.

拳
道

I believe these are the characters. Of course, if anyone has information to the contrary I am more than open to learn. And thank you sir for a great topic. I am always trying to figure out what the characters are and the meanings of some of the forms etc. in the Kuntao systems I do are. My teacher is not a Chinese speaker as well. Thank you again.

-wes tasker

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Dear Mr. Tasker,

I have seen Kuntao written with those characters too, and my teacher said it means literally "the way of the fist" but since the proper name for the martial art is Quan Fa or Kempo which uses the character for "method" or "law" for the second kanji, then he said the translation could also means "fist fight". Again, my teacher is more familiar with Japanese meanings than Chinese, so it is possible that he is not exactly correct

Anyway, Mr. Khu said that he himself never read the kanji characters for Kuntao, it was never a "written" art, it is always an "oral history" art, so he is not very sure about what kanji to write it. But he insist that the Kanji for Kuntao can't be the same with the Kanji for Quan Fa or Kempo, and also can't be the same with the Kanji for Kungfu.

 

[Wes Tasker]

Mr. Hardika-

Thank you for your replies. I too have heard that Kuntao was rarely, if ever, written down so that the characters aren't really known. Although I am curious as to Mr. Khu's reasoning as to why the characters can't be for Quan Fa - as the pronounciation of the term "Kuntao" is in another dialect. I understand why it wouldn't be "Gung Fu". But I am still wondering why it can't be "Quan Fa".... Thank you again.

-wes tasker

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

So glad to be able to help!

 

[Buwaya]

In my opinion, kuntao refers to an art of Chinese origin but that has been further developed, and is now practiced, in Indonesia, Malaysia, or the Philippines. So, I'd say that it is indeed an Indonesian system in your case...of Chinese lineage. If it was still chinese, it'd be called Kung Fu (or kuen or whatever) instead.

But, see this thread (esp. the second page) for a contrary opinion.

Hello Arnisador I believe you misunderstood my posts on the above link. Please relook at posts #2, #4 and #11.

Kuntao is a term for Chinese arts in southern China. There's a large southern Chinese population in the Philippines. So, even when a Chinese art is from a different part of China it can still be called kuntao since its the accepted term.

Kuntao in Pilipino Chinatowns in the areas of Christianized Pilipinos, is Chinese. That is because there has been no deviation from how the arts are practiced in China or, except with recent exceptions all in the last century, no intermixing with indigenous arts. Its been a common practice to refuse to instruct non Chinese in kuntao in the Philippines, just as in the last century it was common for Eskrima and Arnis Grandmasters to refuse to teach kungfu experts.

Maharlika kuntaw or Kuntaw Lima Lima is Pilipino. Though the art is of Okinawan origin, its alteration is of Pilipino invention. The founder is Pilipino and the curiculum is in Tagalog.

Moro Kuntaw/kuntao practiced in the southern PI is Pilipino or specificly Bangsamoro. Its of Chinese origin but has been in the region for centuries. There's been a documented Chinese pressence in the southern Philippines for over 700 years. Kuntaw is performed at festivals and considered an indigeous part of the culture. And in some cases has been blended with local silat.

Hope this clarifies things. I'm a little tired so I hope what I wrote makes sense.

 

[Buwaya]

Hello,

More awake, and thankfully my post looks coherent.

One add on.
Lastly, recent FMA-Chinese hybrids, all within the last century, are Pilipino. Like Tatkuntao(Balintwak principles with Five ancestors kungfu), Gokosha(formless Tatkuntao), Lapunti arnis de Abaniko(Filemon Caburney's Eskrima with Johny Chuitian's Shaolin background), or Arnis Cadena/Pronus Supineus(Johny Chuitian's personal expression of Shaolin, Taiji, Balintiwak, Lapunti, and other arts).

Prof.Vee's Arnis Kuntao Jitsu could eaily be on this last list except I'm limiting my post to arts developed and created in the Philippines. American FMA is a whole other can of worms and is really a different topic, sometimes having very little to do with how the arts are traditionally in the PI.

 

[arnisador]

I think I understood...but in the Indonesian sense especially the way I've heard it used is slightly different.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Thank you Buwaya for another point of view regarding Kuntao!

Here in Indones we never knew that our neighbor the Phillipines has Kuntao. We know that all ASEAN countries has Kungfu, but we thought the term Kuntao is only used in Indonesia, until I read your post.

We learn new things everyday!

Regarding Prof. Vee's Vee Arnis Kuntao.

I think there are another persons who done just that, combining Kuntao with Jujutsu. The Tan brothers in Surabaya and Mr. Bat Ling Ong in West Java (Bandung). However we don't consider their art Kuntao, rather, we consider them as doing Japanese arts.

 

[Buwaya]

Arnisador,
Cool, no problem. My bad.

Jujutsu_idonesia,
kuntaw or kuntao in the Philippines, kuntau in Malaysia. Given the proximity I'd assume there is kuntao in Brunei, Singapore and southern Thailand, but I do not know.

 

[hoksangar]

hello,
in my opinion i believe kung tao=kung fu.

@jujutsu_indonesia
who is tan brother in surabaya?do you mean diam cai?
because surabaya is my hometown.