Uniformed police veteran uses taser on handcuffed 9 year old girl. Is it possible to justify this?
http://www.madville.com/link.php?id=70273&t=24
http://www.madville.com/link.php?id=70273&t=24
Is it OK to tase a 9 yr. old?
- Thread starter OULobo
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As the mother of a developmentally delayed son, this is preferable only to shooting her dead. This is the nightmare that all us parents of special needs kids wake up from, sweating. I suppose in this case, I would question why was it necessary to taze a handcuffed girl? And I have a real problem with this guy still being on duty (why not desk duty until investigation? ).
Before I get flamed, let me say this: I recognize that the behavior some of these people exhibit (as adults) can closely mimic that of drugged-up, crazed criminals. And I've read about other officers reading the file on things like this and swear they'd do nothing different.
Is there anything in law enforcement training about recognizing developmental disabilities?
Before I get flamed, let me say this: I recognize that the behavior some of these people exhibit (as adults) can closely mimic that of drugged-up, crazed criminals. And I've read about other officers reading the file on things like this and swear they'd do nothing different.
Is there anything in law enforcement training about recognizing developmental disabilities?
Cruentus
Grandmaster
OULobo said:
I couldn't access the article because of security on my company computer, but the short answer is there is absolutely no justification for this.
Tulisan, I have pasted the article below.
She-Sulsa
Officer's Taser is used on girl, 9 :jedi1:
09:17 AM MST on Tuesday, May 25, 2004
By C.J. Karamargin / Arizona Daily Star
A veteran South Tucson police sergeant is under investigation for firing his stun gun to subdue a handcuffed 9-year-old girl.
At the request of Chief Sixto Molina, the Pima County Sheriff's Department is trying to determine if the sergeant committed a crime when he sent a jolt through the child's body.
The police officer used a Taser on the girl at about 5:30 p.m. May 8, Molina said. The nonlethal weapon uses a pulsating electrical charge to immobilize a person for several seconds.
"I'll be the first to admit, you've got a veteran sergeant Tasing a 9-year-old girl, it doesn't look good," said Molina.
The sergeant was one of at least two officers who responded to a call from the Arizona Children's Home, a school for special needs children, on South Eighth Avenue, he said.
"It had to do with a runaway from the institution," the chief said. He declined to provide further details.
The school could not be reached for comment late Monday. But Molina said that the facility is the source of frequent calls to his 25-person department.
Molina said one officer initially responded to the call from the school. That officer requested assistance from another officer and specifically asked that the second officer bring a Taser.
He said the girl was handcuffed at the time the weapon was used.
The sergeant who used the hand-held Taser remains on duty. His name is not being released while the investigation is under way.
"It didn't involve an integrity issue," Molina said. "The officer made a decision to do what he thought he needed to do."
Deputy Dawn Barkman, a spokeswoman with the Sheriff's Department, confirmed a review of the incident is under way but said she had no further details.
The results of the probe will be forwarded to the Pima County Attorney's Office.
"They'll have to present it to us to see if any criminal charges are warranted," said County Attorney's Office spokesman Dan Benavides.
Sgt. Dan Snyder, a South Tucson police spokesman, said the investigation could be complete by the end of the week.
For more Arizona news, visit www.azstarnet.com or www.azfamily.com.
©The Arizona Daily Star, 2004
She-Sulsa
Officer's Taser is used on girl, 9 :jedi1:
09:17 AM MST on Tuesday, May 25, 2004
By C.J. Karamargin / Arizona Daily Star
A veteran South Tucson police sergeant is under investigation for firing his stun gun to subdue a handcuffed 9-year-old girl.
At the request of Chief Sixto Molina, the Pima County Sheriff's Department is trying to determine if the sergeant committed a crime when he sent a jolt through the child's body.
The police officer used a Taser on the girl at about 5:30 p.m. May 8, Molina said. The nonlethal weapon uses a pulsating electrical charge to immobilize a person for several seconds.
"I'll be the first to admit, you've got a veteran sergeant Tasing a 9-year-old girl, it doesn't look good," said Molina.
The sergeant was one of at least two officers who responded to a call from the Arizona Children's Home, a school for special needs children, on South Eighth Avenue, he said.
"It had to do with a runaway from the institution," the chief said. He declined to provide further details.
The school could not be reached for comment late Monday. But Molina said that the facility is the source of frequent calls to his 25-person department.
Molina said one officer initially responded to the call from the school. That officer requested assistance from another officer and specifically asked that the second officer bring a Taser.
He said the girl was handcuffed at the time the weapon was used.
The sergeant who used the hand-held Taser remains on duty. His name is not being released while the investigation is under way.
"It didn't involve an integrity issue," Molina said. "The officer made a decision to do what he thought he needed to do."
Deputy Dawn Barkman, a spokeswoman with the Sheriff's Department, confirmed a review of the incident is under way but said she had no further details.
The results of the probe will be forwarded to the Pima County Attorney's Office.
"They'll have to present it to us to see if any criminal charges are warranted," said County Attorney's Office spokesman Dan Benavides.
Sgt. Dan Snyder, a South Tucson police spokesman, said the investigation could be complete by the end of the week.
For more Arizona news, visit www.azstarnet.com or www.azfamily.com.
©The Arizona Daily Star, 2004
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Thanks SheSulsa! 
Comments like these make me want to scream:
"It didn't involve an integrity issue," Molina said. "The officer made a decision to do what he thought he needed to do."
Seriously, WTF? But noooo...we don't live in a Police State. But that's O.K., I'm sure that little girl wasn't using her Civil Liberties anyways.
Comments like these make me want to scream:
"It didn't involve an integrity issue," Molina said. "The officer made a decision to do what he thought he needed to do."
Seriously, WTF? But noooo...we don't live in a Police State. But that's O.K., I'm sure that little girl wasn't using her Civil Liberties anyways.
1 question - What was she doing, or trying to do, that made the officer think she needed to be zapped?
That is the information needed to determin if it was justified.
On the surface, I don't agree it was right...but I can think of several things that an individual, especially someone who is 'challenged' might do, that would require some way of safely sedating. When I worked at McD, the one girl who worked there scared me. She was very 'challenged', talked to the voices in her head, and had many temper tantrums.
We're only seeing part of the story here...I want the rest. Please, if anyone sees a follow up, let us know.
That is the information needed to determin if it was justified.
On the surface, I don't agree it was right...but I can think of several things that an individual, especially someone who is 'challenged' might do, that would require some way of safely sedating. When I worked at McD, the one girl who worked there scared me. She was very 'challenged', talked to the voices in her head, and had many temper tantrums.
We're only seeing part of the story here...I want the rest. Please, if anyone sees a follow up, let us know.
It isn't justified not by any means. The girl is 9 (NINE) years old. If a grown adult can't handle one like that (and just where was his partner or back up?), then he needs to go back to the gym or find another line of work. Even if he tazed an adult while handcuffed that isn't justification.
What was he thinking?
I'm sorry, I just can't see any justification at all with that barring details or not. It was a kid for crying out loud. I don't even want to go there about the long term effects this will have on the kid.
That I see as going way above and beyond arrest procedures.
:angry: :soapbox: :rpo: :flammad: :cuss:
What was he thinking?
I'm sorry, I just can't see any justification at all with that barring details or not. It was a kid for crying out loud. I don't even want to go there about the long term effects this will have on the kid.
That I see as going way above and beyond arrest procedures.
:angry: :soapbox: :rpo: :flammad:
:cuss:It's hard to imagine how this could be appropriate.
Ball State U. officers get tasers:
http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/150375-3997-009.html
Ball State U. officers get tasers:
http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/150375-3997-009.html
Cruentus
Grandmaster
It would be nice to know the whole story, but I really don't see how tazing a 9 year old in cuffs could ever be appropriate!
M
Mon Mon
Guest
It depends on the circumstance if the child was acting in a way that could have been dangerous to herself or the other officers on duty. I think tazing her would be perfectly acceptable. It might have been painful but if she was really struggleing and they had to stop her, holding her down might have hurt her or the other officer. So in that situation to give her a quick jolt might not be so bad of a thing.
The average 9 year old would not need to be put into handcuffs.
The average 9 year old would not be a problem for an adult.
If the child was endangering another child or her own life with her actions, I could see where someone might make a decision to act to avoid teh law suit over a wrongful death either someone else's or the childs.
Articles like this cause a big issue, for no real information is given other then what will get a reaction from the average person. The information should be reported.
My experience with a special needs child who lost it. The child turned around in my arms as I was carrying them back into the house they had run out of. The child grabbed two hands full of hair and pulled. She came away with two handsfull of my hair. I had longer hair ( 3 to 4 inches ) back then. It was not until the child saw both hands full of hair did they begin to realize what they had done. With pain I kept walking into the house with the child, to get her back to her parents. Some of these children will dislocate their joints while lifting or moving or pulling. The idea of pain does nto occur to them or register. Hence only my hug, just tight enough to life and carry. And her capability to spin on me and face me after I caught her running away. Her age was 10/11. I was about 13, 6'3" and about 190 lbs. The hair in her hands kept her occupied and off the idea of being out in the street following the yellow lines down the road.
So, like many have said, I find it hard, yet possible to believe, and would really like to know more information.
With respect to all those who love and protect children
:asian:
The average 9 year old would not be a problem for an adult.
If the child was endangering another child or her own life with her actions, I could see where someone might make a decision to act to avoid teh law suit over a wrongful death either someone else's or the childs.
Articles like this cause a big issue, for no real information is given other then what will get a reaction from the average person. The information should be reported.
My experience with a special needs child who lost it. The child turned around in my arms as I was carrying them back into the house they had run out of. The child grabbed two hands full of hair and pulled. She came away with two handsfull of my hair. I had longer hair ( 3 to 4 inches ) back then. It was not until the child saw both hands full of hair did they begin to realize what they had done. With pain I kept walking into the house with the child, to get her back to her parents. Some of these children will dislocate their joints while lifting or moving or pulling. The idea of pain does nto occur to them or register. Hence only my hug, just tight enough to life and carry. And her capability to spin on me and face me after I caught her running away. Her age was 10/11. I was about 13, 6'3" and about 190 lbs. The hair in her hands kept her occupied and off the idea of being out in the street following the yellow lines down the road.
So, like many have said, I find it hard, yet possible to believe, and would really like to know more information.
With respect to all those who love and protect children
:asian:
someguy
Master Black Belt
I'd like to know the rest of the story. Maybe I'll do soe looking around at some point or something but I can't imagine a reason to have to taze a 9 year old girl already hand cufff unless she might hurt herself.
Take a moment and think about if this were your daughter...really think about it...your daughter has special needs - doesn't know what she's doing...not sure where she is, not intent on doing someone bodily harm or herself harm with the same intent that others do...that the only champion she has is you...that you were so alone in dealing with her, you had to place her in a group home....
For whatever reason, she felt the need to flee - you don't know why, no one probably knows why except her...then, she was handcuffed and tazed.
I dunno, I guess I'd rather an innocent child rip my hair out and scratch me all up and tweak my arm that purposely harm her "for her own good" or "for my safety."
Perhaps I could be slanted here, but....
For whatever reason, she felt the need to flee - you don't know why, no one probably knows why except her...then, she was handcuffed and tazed.
I dunno, I guess I'd rather an innocent child rip my hair out and scratch me all up and tweak my arm that purposely harm her "for her own good" or "for my safety."
Perhaps I could be slanted here, but....
Taimishu
Blue Belt
Avoiding for the moment whether the officer was right or wrong, there is not enough information given to call it, one of my friends daughter is 9. She is as big as a 16 year old weighs more than her mum and is very strong, she is also special needs.
If she ever "lost it" I would not be able to control her and would only suceed in doing so with extreme force, possibly hurting her seriously.Handcuffs do not imobilise a person and they can still kick, bite, squirm around and generally need to be subdued.
As a father of a girl I can understand the concern here but say again that the press is being itself again (sensationalist) and the information given seems designed to cause the sort of reaction that it has. Was the action justified I dont know but I try to keep an open mind.
David
If she ever "lost it" I would not be able to control her and would only suceed in doing so with extreme force, possibly hurting her seriously.Handcuffs do not imobilise a person and they can still kick, bite, squirm around and generally need to be subdued.
As a father of a girl I can understand the concern here but say again that the press is being itself again (sensationalist) and the information given seems designed to cause the sort of reaction that it has. Was the action justified I dont know but I try to keep an open mind.
David
KenpoTex
Senior Master
Just a couple of thoughts...
As some of you have said, we don't know the whole story. The media is notorious for twisting the story to make the police look bad. I'm not saying that's the case here, just something to consider. Something else some of you have mentioned that warrants consideration is: what she doing to make the officer feel that this was a necessary course of action; in other words, was she biting or kicking the officers? Was she endangering herself because of her behavior? The nice thing about tazers is that they give an officer the ability to subdue an individual without using physical force that could cause harm or injury. The effects are short-term and to my knowledge the only real risk of injury is in the case of someone with heart problems.
I'm not defending the officer per se. If he was not justified in his actions then they need to nail his butt to the wall. However, due to the fact that the police get sued every time they give someone a dirty look most, if not all, departments are very strict about use-of-force and the types of force that can be used. Therefore, I find it somewhat hard to believe that he would have done this without some sort of justification, on the other hand, there are rotten apples in every barrel. Who knows?
As some of you have said, we don't know the whole story. The media is notorious for twisting the story to make the police look bad. I'm not saying that's the case here, just something to consider. Something else some of you have mentioned that warrants consideration is: what she doing to make the officer feel that this was a necessary course of action; in other words, was she biting or kicking the officers? Was she endangering herself because of her behavior? The nice thing about tazers is that they give an officer the ability to subdue an individual without using physical force that could cause harm or injury. The effects are short-term and to my knowledge the only real risk of injury is in the case of someone with heart problems.
I'm not defending the officer per se. If he was not justified in his actions then they need to nail his butt to the wall. However, due to the fact that the police get sued every time they give someone a dirty look most, if not all, departments are very strict about use-of-force and the types of force that can be used. Therefore, I find it somewhat hard to believe that he would have done this without some sort of justification, on the other hand, there are rotten apples in every barrel. Who knows?
shesulsa said:
True an innocent child, and one you could carry in your arms, would be much easier. I was just offering up information, that special needs children are not always docile, and not always compliant.
As to handcuffs, I have seen guys on drugs who continues to fight to police while hand cuffed. Yes, the complied and got hand cuffed after a wrestling match then they decided that getting into the police car was not good. Biting cops, kicking them, and the guy was 5'4" and about 145 lbs. Three cops, much large could not control him with out risking further injury.
I am not justifying the actions. I am just stating that there could be other infomration we do not know about.
:asian:
someguy
Master Black Belt
It's so much eaisier to simple kill than restrain.
Devils Advocate here:
IF! the 9yr old was largist OR was acting in a manner that could have led to harm to herself or others, the least harmful way to restrain would be to zap. This allows to officer to preserve their safety, as well as avoid the possibility of more lethal force (accidental or otherwise) coming in to play.
What actions?
Biting, smashing their head into things, kicking, gnawing on the cuffs, working at the cuffs to the point of drawing blood, hysterics.
Having seen a 'challenged' individual get physically violent simply because she was told not to fill a napkin dispenser, I can accept that there may in fact be times when tasering someone is justifiable.
It is most certainly more preferable to shooting them, clubing them, or wresting them. Or trying to drug them.
Again, devils advocate. There is not enough evidence to make a fair judgement here.
9 yr olds can be 40lbs, and 180lbs. 3ft and 6ft. This article makes it sound like the kid was lying there and the cop just zapped her.
I want to know is what was the kid doing that resulted in the cop thinking zapping was needed.
IF! the 9yr old was largist OR was acting in a manner that could have led to harm to herself or others, the least harmful way to restrain would be to zap. This allows to officer to preserve their safety, as well as avoid the possibility of more lethal force (accidental or otherwise) coming in to play.
What actions?
Biting, smashing their head into things, kicking, gnawing on the cuffs, working at the cuffs to the point of drawing blood, hysterics.
Having seen a 'challenged' individual get physically violent simply because she was told not to fill a napkin dispenser, I can accept that there may in fact be times when tasering someone is justifiable.
It is most certainly more preferable to shooting them, clubing them, or wresting them. Or trying to drug them.
Again, devils advocate. There is not enough evidence to make a fair judgement here.
9 yr olds can be 40lbs, and 180lbs. 3ft and 6ft. This article makes it sound like the kid was lying there and the cop just zapped her.
I want to know is what was the kid doing that resulted in the cop thinking zapping was needed.
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