Intrested in bokken arts/kendo

[Jitsuka91]

I already practise JJ as you can tell from my name and have been for a few years but I like to try something new, the problem is money I am unable to learn at dojo due to not enough days in the week and session cost,so till I can go to a dojo I would like to learn from home, I'm interested in learning kata I have already :bought a bokken and ordered
Bokken : Art of the Japanese Sword by Sensei David lowry

. which was a really highly recommended book but is there anything else I can do drills etc?

any reply very much appreciated!

 

[ludde]

One question. Do you train in a dojo in jujutsu? If yes, would it be possible to learn what you have learnt from a book or a film? If you are learning jj from a dojo your answer would most probably be no you cant learn from home without an instructor.
The same would be in this case. Learning history, reading on culture and what to expect is possible to read (not that you are qualified in that field by reading but it is possible to learn some). www.koryu.com is a nice place to start.

So take time and money and visit all the dojo around you that does that kind of stuff and join what you feel is the best for you.

 

[Jitsuka91]

One question. Do you train in a dojo in jujutsu? If yes, would it be possible to learn what you have learnt from a book or a film? If you are learning jj from a dojo your answer would most probably be no you cant learn from home without an instructor.
The same would be in this case. Learning history, reading on culture and what to expect is possible to read (not that you are qualified in that field by reading but it is possible to learn some). www.koryu.com is a nice place to start.

So take time and money and visit all the dojo around you that does that kind of stuff and join what you feel is the best for you.

in a dojo thats why I cant afford/have time for a sword art at a dojo

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would look for a seminar on the sword from a local training hall and possibly go from there. Once you start then maybe you can attend once or twice a month and learn directly from an instructor.

Do not waste your time trying to learn from a book as it really is not a viable option as you simply miss to many of the details. Good luck!

 

[Charles Mahan]

in a dojo thats why I cant afford/have time for a sword art at a dojo

That's unfortunate. You should probably just not bother then since it doesn't seem to be something you are genuinely interested in. Life is too short to mess around.

 

[Jitsuka91]

That's unfortunate. You should probably just not bother then since it doesn't seem to be something you are genuinely interested in. Life is too short to mess around.

unfortunately I'm still a student that's why I'm so short of funds , so your are saying you cannot do other arts whilst practising a sword art?

 

[Charles Mahan]

No, I'm saying that if you want to learn a Japanese sword art you should find and join a proper dojo and do it right. If you don't want to learn a Japanese sword art bad enough to at least take that step, then you don't really want it bad enough to make it worth the trouble. Either find a way to do it correctly or wait till you can, but why bother playing at it?

 

[Jitsuka91]

No, I'm saying that if you want to learn a Japanese sword art you should find and join a proper dojo and do it right. If you don't want to learn a Japanese sword art bad enough to at least take that step, then you don't really want it bad enough to make it worth the trouble. Either find a way to do it correctly or wait till you can, but why bother playing at it?

I see, what your saying igf your gonna do it , do it properly. I suppose I would give someone the same advice about Jitsu -thanks for your help

 

[jks9199]

From a book, you can learn to swing a wooden sword around in ways that approximate the proper cuts. But the camera can't catch subtleties of spacing, timing and alignment -- not even a video camera -- that are often essential.

A very few people can read a book, and understand it, and learn from the book. Most of us can't; we need to see the actual movements, in person, and have an instructor look at what we're doing, and correct it.

 

[Langenschwert]

I would look for a seminar on the sword from a local training hall and possibly go from there. Once you start then maybe you can attend once or twice a month and learn directly from an instructor.

This is a really good option. I do this for my WMA, and I'm very pleased with the results. I travel once a month for training and augment that with working out of interpretations of medieval manuals, and using English translations of the manuals themselves.

Do not waste your time trying to learn from a book as it really is not a viable option as you simply miss to many of the details. Good luck!

Indeed. It is very difficult. It's not impossible, since early WMA practicioners did just this with the surviving manuals. The progress would be very slow for one person though, and ultimately fruitless since you'd have no one to test it on. The reason it worked with WMA is that people collaborated and worked in study groups, spent time learning medieval German and Italian and whatnot, and pressure tested the interpretations constantly, a process which continues to this day. For a solitary practicioner, you're better off saving your shekels to travel and train. The enormity of doing this on one's own is well, beyond most of us.

HOWEVER, a good thing about books is that you can learn the terminology beforehand, giving your brain a framework upon which to map the physical actions as you learn them. This helps me a lot, actually, being a verbal person. I have a much easier time learning a technique when I've got a name for it and an explanation of what it's supposed to accomplish. Reading up on things isn't going to hurt any. Just remember that the book may actually have errors, and leave your preconceptions at the door when you finally get the training you're looking for.

I believe it was Fiore dei Liberi who said that the art of the sword was so vast that it would be impossible to become a great master without books.

Good luck in your search.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Charles Mahan]

WMAs may very well be different, but knowing what I know about MJER, and knowing what I've read in books about MJER, I can say with a great deal of confidence that, even if you read all the books on MJER and spent several generations trying to recreate it, you'd never quite get it right. There are too many things that would be lost. To many basic concepts that just can't be written down or photographed. Heck you couldn't even do it with video. Full transmission of the style and it's fundamental principles requires direct transmission.

That is not to say that the effort could not create an effective useful sword art that would serve you well in actual combat with another swordsman. I have a great deal of respect for what the WMA folks have managed to accomplish. I'm just saying that the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu could not be recreated in the same fashion. Fortunately it is a living tradition and does not need to be recreated.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

WMAs may very well be different, but knowing what I know about MJER, and knowing what I've read in books about MJER, I can say with a great deal of confidence that, even if you read all the books on MJER and spent several generations trying to recreate it, you'd never quite get it right. There are too many things that would be lost. To many basic concepts that just can't be written down or photographed. Heck you couldn't even do it with video. Full transmission of the style and it's fundamental principles requires direct transmission.

That is not to say that the effort could not create an effective useful sword art that would serve you well in actual combat with another swordsman. I have a great deal of respect for what the WMA folks have managed to accomplish. I'm just saying that the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu could not be recreated in the same fashion. Fortunately it is a living tradition and does not need to be recreated.

Hey Charles I have to agree with you whole heartedly that Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu could not be recreated from a book. You would simply miss to many tiny details here and there.

I also think that applies to any sword art WMA included. I to have alot of respect for WMA practitioners and feel that what they are doing has alot of merit. Still I believe that they must have missed certain details as there is simply no one to show them the way. That in no way invalidates what is being done but that certainly some things have simply disappeared because there was no direct transmission.

 

[Sukerkin]

Excellent points made above both about how trying to learn JSA without a sensei is an excercise in futility and how the WSA have formed a consensus that is workable but unproven because of the break in the 'chain'.

As to the OP, Jitsu, the only answer that will lead you to the goal is to make the money and time available to study under a qualified teacher. I know it's blunt and seems at first glance unhelpul but it is true. As Charles said, there is no gain in 'playing' at it - all you will do is train in wrong techniques and habits that'll take an age to break if you ever do get to study seriously.

 

[Langenschwert]

Still I believe that they must have missed certain details as there is simply no one to show them the way. That in no way invalidates what is being done but that certainly some things have simply disappeared because there was no direct transmission.

Indeed. We've found this to both a blessing and a curse overall. The nice thing is, we have the arts frozen in time at the peak of their use and effectiveness through the manuals. The downside is that our interpretations can be flawed. However, this brings its own rewards in that revamping interpretations brings a deeper understanding of the Art over time. This actually has leaked over into JSA. The highly-esteemed Terry Brown, who is the leading authority on English martial arts, was contacted by a koryu for advice regarding their own art. To quote Terry from swordforum.com:

Many years ago, following the publication of my book, I was approached by a senior member of a koryu which was founded in the 16th century. It seems that they had come to the conclusion that the Art(s) they taught had become too ritualised and were seeking to 'back-engineer' their system in order to restore it, as closely as possible, to the effective fighting system it would have been four hundred years before. They were using my book in an attempt to understand what fighting principles may have applied to their Art.

Their followed quite a long correspondence which included them sending me videos of them performing their Art. I do not know if they followed my advice or not but it is interesting is it not that at least one traditional Japanese koryu were concerned that they had 'lost their way'.

And that's the problem that both HES and JSA share... possible distortion of the Art since we no longer use it in the crucible of lethal combat.

And let's not forget there ARE living traditions of European swordsmanship. For example, Italian duelling sabre. Here's a bio of Maestro Sean Hayes, showing his lineage:

http://www.northwestacademyofarms.com/aboutteacher.htm

True, it is not an unbroken lineage from the middle ages, but there are universal principles and subtleties that were not lost in the West.

Very best regards,

-Mark

 

[Sukerkin]

A nice point there, langen about how even an unbroken lineage is no guarantee that nothings been lost :tup:.

 

[Walter Wong]

The old classical arts of Japanese swordsmanship are so deep and sophisticated that it has to be learned under a certified or qualified sensei. Even training under a sensei's supervision and guidance, it is still difficult to aquire and grasp the subtleties involved. It's already difficult enough with live instruction. There's no way can the arts with real depth and breath with combat as a prime directive can be aquired from only a book and video. The live instruction is the only way it's going to happen. If skipping out on live instruction then you're just playing and you do not have anything to do with edged weapons combat.