Interesting video on using shifting the center, sinking, etc

[BPWT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X96FVUwOCwA#t=387

Interesting video from a WSLVT instructor in the UK. He's also been studying Taiji and is now incorporating some of this into his VT.

What was interesting, for me, was something he says early in the video, and shows in relation to Tan and later with Bong, too. The theme runs through the whole video. He was talking about shifting the center and how when he turns and pivots using VT, it doesn't shift his centre. He then uses a Taiji method to shift, and shows how that does move his center and how that offers some advantages.

I found this interesting, as for any of us that pivot on/close to the K1 point (so those who study the Leung Ting method, Leung Sheung method or Pin Sun, for example) we are doing much the same thing. In Clive's video he shifts and redistributes weight (something pretty key to Taiji) and sinks.

Certainly, what he is showing is not really what I learn in LTWT, but nonetheless it made me think there are some very real similarities: how we shift (on/near the K1), how we redistribute weight (we don't maintain a 50/50 distribution at all times, but load up a leg and then release when we move) and how we sink and use our knees (Kim Sut).

The video is also nice, as he is not just doing a set demo, but asking his student to throw in random punches, to use force, etc, to show that he can make this method work. Nice!

Also nice is that he records almost an hour of instruction - and puts it up online to share it.

 

[KPM]

I don't have time to watch an hour long video right now. I did watch a bit where he is talking about sinking and expanding. Good stuff! But.....he didn't have to go to Tai Chi for this. Its part of Wing Chun already! At least its part of Pin Sun. Pin Sun makes use of ideas of "sink, rise, swallow, spit" just like a lot of the other southern chinese arts. We do exactly what he was talking about. No grand revelation there. ;-)

Do you have time stamp for where he talks about pivoting?

 

[BPWT]

I don't have time to watch an hour long video right now. I did watch a bit where he is talking about sinking and expanding. Good stuff! But.....he didn't have to go to Tai Chi for this. Its part of Wing Chun already! At least its part of Pin Sun. Pin Sun makes use of ideas of "sink, rise, swallow, spit" just like a lot of the other southern chinese arts. We do exactly what he was talking about. No grand revelation there. ;-)

Do you have time stamp for where he talks about pivoting?

Yes, it is a loooong video. Idiot that I am, I started watching it at 1.20am But worth it. And yes, I agree that much of what is in the basics is in the WC/WT system already. Some obvious connection to what Alan Orr does in some of his instructional clips about sinking and rising, and delinking.

Regarding pivoting, I don't think he uses the word itself (I'd have to watch it all again, LOL) but throughout the video he talks about moving his centre - and this was a big surprise to me, as WSL guys I've spoken to usually talk about pivoting around their centre and not moving the center itself with a shift. There was an interesting article or forum post from Philipp Bayer (probably well over a year ago when I read it) where he talked about this from a WSLVT perspective, and explained why he doesn't shift from the K1 point.

A different view to my own.

In this clip from HK, you can see the effect of the pivot on the K1 point when Leung Ting shifts - around 1.01 - 1.12

Leung Ting teaching fighterman springing force applications - YouTube

Lead into emptiness, and all that jazz.

 

[Kwan Sau]

But.....he didn't have to go to Tai Chi for this. Its part of Wing Chun already!

Exactly! Well said KPM!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

pivoting around their centre and not moving the center itself with a shift.

One may consider to

- pivot around the center as small body spinning, and
- move the center as big body spinning.

If your opponent attacks the

- "one side" of your body, you can use your spine as your axis,
- "center" of your body, you can use either side shoulder as your axis,

spin, and move your entire body to be outside of your opponent's striking path.

Of course to move your body back, or side way are not part of your small/big body spinning. IMO, both training are needed. Sometime by using the small body spinning, even if you may move your body out of your opponent's punching path, but his body may still hit your body with momentum and run you down. In this case, you may want to give him "a bit more space" so you can "lead him into the complete emptiness".

 

[BPWT]

One may consider to

- pivot around the center as small body spinning, and
- move the center as big body spinning.

That makes sense to me. I've always thought that our Chum Kiu form had more of an emphasis on what you call 'big body spinning' (moving the center), and that our Biu Tse form placed more of an emphasis on 'small body spinning' (pivot around the center).

Sometime by using the small body spinning, even if you may move your body out of your opponent's punching path, but his body may still hit your body with momentum and run you down. In this case, you may want to give him "a bit more space" so you can "lead him into the complete emptiness".

 

[Cephalopod]

This looks to be an interesting video BPWT, thanks for posting. I'm at work so I only scanned through it with the sound off but it seems worth a more thorough look.

however....

One leeeetle point:
Is it possible to illustrate ideas in a video about using movement, sinking and force vectors without resorting to rag-doll theatrics? I mean no disrespect to the chap in blue and the principles that he is using but I find it very distracting when his training partner lurches backward as if the man is shooting Baba Yaga's Wall of Flaming Chi from under his bushy eyebrows.

This is not so much a rant as an honest question...and perhaps an gram of constructive criticism to the video makers out there.

I am all too aware that when principles like these are used against a partner who is skilled (as our friend in the vid) but who is non-compliant, the results are far less visually clear.

The instigator would have to move quicker and with more power to elicit the same effect of launching the partner off his feet. the resulting video would be a meaningless blur of action. Or, if he moves at the same speed, the partner would be able to, to a certain degree, absorb and bypass and the effects on video would be subtle to the point of invisibility.

Anyone have any ideas on this? Sorry to be off-topic but if this irritates me, a devoted chunner, I can appreciate how the uninitiated use videos like this to lambast our beloved art and laugh us off as lunatics who claim to have superpowers.


To return on topic...

Once again, I did like what I saw of the way he moves in the video, it seems to have elements of the way we train.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

against a partner who is skilled (as our friend in the vid) but who is non-compliant,

Just for the fun of discussion, How much non-compliant do you think should be needed in a clip?

1. You push, your opponent flies back.
2. You push, your opponent resists, you pull, he flies forward.
3. You push, your opponent resists, you pull, he resists again, you push, he flies back.
4. You push, your opponent resists, you pull, he resists again, you push, he resists again, you pull, he flies forward.
5. ...

 

[Cephalopod]

Just for the fun of discussion, How much non-compliant do you think should be needed in a clip?

1. You push, your opponent flies back.
2. You push, your opponent resists, you pull, he flies forward.
3. You push, your opponent resists, you pull, he resists again, you push, he flies back.
4. You push, your opponent resists, you pull, he resists again, you push, he resists again, you pull, he flies forward.
5. ...

My request is very simple: nobody should do any flying without there being enough force to break the surly bonds of earth.

I am not suggesting that the opponent should do everything possible to thwart his sifu from demonstrating an idea. I just don't think that the extra play-acting is necessary or desirable.

At 3:10, for example, I have no doubt that the sifu is able to upset his partner's balance, but the extra bit of reeling at the end simply isn't going to happen naturally unless the partner either does a bit of embellishing or has suction cups on the bottom of his shoes.

It's really not so bad in this video, but it's a slippery slope to this:

where at 1:40, a seminar student IMHO makes a mockery of his sifu by accelerating across the stage...
and then before you know it, you've sold yourself into a cult of silliness like this:
Henry Wang Search Center Tai Chi ????? - YouTube

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My request is very simple: nobody should do any flying without there being enough force to break the surly bonds of earth.

Agree with you there. It will be much better that when

- you kick your opponent's groin, he blocks your kick, you punch his face (a 1, 2 combo), or
- you kick your opponent's groin, he blocks your kick, you punch his face, he blocks your punch, you then punch his chest (a 1, 2, 3 combo).

If you do this in combat speed, it will look very real. I don't know why some of the TCMA clips don't use this kind of approach.

 

[KPM]

Regarding pivoting, I don't think he uses the word itself (I'd have to watch it all again, LOL) but throughout the video he talks about moving his centre - and this was a big surprise to me, as WSL guys I've spoken to usually talk about pivoting around their centre and not moving the center itself with a shift. There was an interesting article or forum post from Philipp Bayer (probably well over a year ago when I read it) where he talked about this from a WSLVT perspective, and explained why he doesn't shift from the K1 point.
.

I think this has more to do with your weight distribution when you shift than it does what you use as the pivot point. In Pin Sun we pivot at the K1 point but keep a 50/50 weight distribution. So the center itself moves very little. Compared to shifting with a 70/30 or 90/10 weight distribution, where the center itself will indeed "swing side to side" a good amount. But the same thing would happen if you shifted on the heels with a 70/30 or 90/10 distro. Its just that when Bayer (and probably most other Ip Man Wing Chun people) think about the K1 pivot, they think about Leung Ting lineage where the K1 pivot and the 90/10 weight distro go together.

 

[Argus]

Agree with you there. It will be much better that when

- you kick your opponent's groin, he blocks your kick, you punch his face (a 1, 2 combo), or
- you kick your opponent's groin, he blocks your kick, you punch his face, he blocks your punch, you then punch his chest (a 1, 2, 3 combo).

If you do this in combat speed, it will look very real. I don't know why some of the TCMA clips don't use this kind of approach.

Too many lists. Too many assumptions. Not everything works this way, this way, then that way, or this way, this way, then that way.
Just friendly advice, though!

The video is interesting, and makes me want to investigate Tai Chi. But I have to echo Cephalopod's comment - the seemingly exaggerated stumbling backwards is distracting, and makes me question the integrity of the video, however much it does seem to make sense.

I can't wait to hear Xue's input on this. Or someone with experience in Tai Chi / internal CMA's.

 

[Cephalopod]

... the seemingly exaggerated stumbling backwards is distracting, and makes me question the integrity of the video, however much it does seem to make sense.
...

Thanks, Argus. My point exactly.

I watched a little more of the video (sound on this time!) and I do like the energy that the chap has. It is very similar to the way that we use disrupting and unbalancing force at my school and, in that sense, is much closer to home than the energy used in many of the schools that I have visited.

However, I do not think that he is onto something new. Personally I believe that WC has often been infused with concepts from Tai Chi. I have heard of many anecdotes of cross-pollination. Most directly is that Jiu Wan, the teacher of my Sifu, had a Tai Chi instructor.

I'm curious, has anyone else heard of Tai Chi influences in their lineages?

 

[dlcox]

I'm curious, has anyone else heard of Tai Chi influences in their lineages?

It's not a new controversy, over the years many parallels have been drawn between Yong Chun and Taiji. Yong Chun in many circles is considered Southern Taijiquan. How this came about? ...................... Many theories abound.

 

[Vajramusti]

Good martial arts can share some "natural" principles. But that odes not mean necessarily that one art has "influenced" the creation of another. Don't need taiji to do
good wing chun imo

 

[Eric_H]

Thanks, Argus. My point exactly.

I watched a little more of the video (sound on this time!) and I do like the energy that the chap has. It is very similar to the way that we use disrupting and unbalancing force at my school and, in that sense, is much closer to home than the energy used in many of the schools that I have visited.

However, I do not think that he is onto something new. Personally I believe that WC has often been infused with concepts from Tai Chi. I have heard of many anecdotes of cross-pollination. Most directly is that Jiu Wan, the teacher of my Sifu, had a Tai Chi instructor.

I'm curious, has anyone else heard of Tai Chi influences in their lineages?

One of the great things about my teacher is that his father was something of a "kung fu collector" and incorporated a lot of styles into his family kung fu, including a few Tai Chi Styles (i know, unusual to know more than one). Sifu is very good about pointing out the differences in WC (which he learned from his second teacher) and Tai Chi or Animal Styles from a well informed position, it's an excellent benefit to learning under him.