Interesting question last night

[terryl965]

Here it is:

If Tae Kwon Do is the natual sport of Korea like Baseball is to America, then why is the playing field not the same in competition?

This comes from the National Poomsae trails in Detroit over 4th of July weekend, there was alot of complication on what was right and wrong and chamging of the poomsae right before certain competitors came up for there chances. One even went as far to say it was fixed to make sure the right people made the team. I will support our team because I know alot of the folks that made it and will continue to work behind the scenes to amke it the best it can be, but to change a poomsae minutes before c ompetiton and only letting certain athletes know this is shocking at best.

 

[14 Kempo]

... but to change a poomsae minutes before c ompetiton and only letting certain athletes know this is shocking at best.

... and absolutely wrong!

 

[terryl965]

... and absolutely wrong!

I agree and they did this in San Jose two years ago as well. Kinda makes you wonder what is really behind all of this.

 

[14 Kempo]

I agree and they did this in San Jose two years ago as well. Kinda makes you wonder what is really behind all of this.

Politics ... what else.

 

[14 Kempo]

... and I'd venture to say that most likely the people winning the events are being told of the changes ahead of the competition ... just a guess.

 

[terryl965]

... and I'd venture to say that most likely the people winning the events are being told of the changes ahead of the competition ... just a guess.

From what I heard that would be a yes

 

[terryl965]

politics ... What else.

money​

 

[mango.man]

Actually it was San Diego 2 years ago and yes they did the same thing to introduce a plethora of changes, minutes before the competition began.

My daughter has chosen to not do poomse ever since.

At least with sparring you know the rules going in. You might not know how each center ref will enforce the rules, but you do know what the rules are and how to play within those rules and that the rules are not going to change from 1 round to the next.

This does not seem to be the case for international poomse team selection in the USA. Changing poomse just before competition after publishing standards months earlier. Sr judges coachinng Jr judges on how to score particular competitors. Sr IRs giving impromptu seminars to only a select few competitors.

It is all really quite sickening and to think that this was the 3rd Poomse Team Trial. It just never seems to get any better. In fact, as bad as the 1st one was in San Diego a couple years ago, it only seems to have gotten worse.

 

[terryl965]

mango.man you are right it was San Diego and yes it is a shame we or should I say the USAT cannot and will not make the proper changes and inforce the rules.

 

[FearlessFreep]

This is why I don't look on forms as a 'competitive art form'

I don't view forms much as 'art form' anyway. To me, they are a catalog of techniques. They show you the techniques that make up the Martial Art and give you pointers on where to be training. So taking a form 'en toto' and treating it as an artistic expression doesn't much interest me.

But if I were to view a form as an artistic expression, then why would I compete in that frame of mind? It's my artistic expression and it means what I'm trying to express it to mean.

Which is why I feel that forms are a valuable training tol for martial arts, but they are not a goal, they point to something larger and more practically applied. As such. to me, competing with forms is... well..a bit silly.

Which is why I find the idea of 'changing a form' a bit weird. I mean if he form is a collection of combat techniques expressed as a abstraction, then what is the new technique or philosophy captured in the change? If the form is an art form of personal expression or demonstration, then changing that piece of art is not very sensible to me

 

[KELLYG]

I think that it bogus to make a change before a major event. The competitors have been practicing and perfecting forms for months or years. If a change is made then all should be instructed on the correct version and the competitor should be allowed to choose with out any ill effect which one to do. I think that a couple of competitor's at our school preformed kumgang and it was different only with the supporting leg while preforming the mountain block. Is this what we are talking about? Was it just a simple hand position or style change?

 

[mango.man]

My understanding is that the change in Kuemgang was "no stomp on the second horse stance / mountain block" and that was a ½ point deduction.

Since you do that 2 times in Kuemgang, as I recall at least, 2 stomps = 1 full point deduction which is huge when we are talking scores in the 1/10 of a point range.

 

[wade]

I had a player get caught up in that mess. She won gold in her regular forms division but did not even make the first cut in the team trails. We sat there and watched one player actually put her foot down on the floor to catch her balance in Keum Gang and she came in 3rd at the first cut. Figure that one out, we can't. We still can't figure out why the judges in one ring, while doing the scores by hand went fairly fast while the one with Dan Rogers took so damn long, and why did he have to do the scoring by hand when everything was supposed to be done on the system? To say we are a tad pissy about this is an understatement. :soapbox:Hmmmmmmm........................

 

[KELLYG]

Well that sets up automatic failure if you were not in the loop. Shame on them, most of the guys and gals that went were under 18 and will learn that there is no pure competition out there anymore. No wonder many people have a dislike for forms.

 

[terryl965]

I had a player get caught up in that mess. She won gold in her regular forms division but did not even make the first cut in the team trails. We sat there and watched one player actually put her foot down on the floor to catch her balance in Keum Gang and she came in 3rd at the first cut. Figure that one out, we can't. We still can't figure out why the judges in one ring, while doing the scores by hand went fairly fast while the one with Dan Rogers took so damn long, and why did he have to do the scoring by hand when everything was supposed to be done on the system? To say we are a tad pissy about this is an understatement. :soapbox:Hmmmmmmm........................

Wade I know you must have been upset and so the competitor. What do you think is next for poomsae in the us

 

[Andrew Green]

Judging forms as a competitive sport should just not be done, at least not traditional forms. It is far too subjective and biased, even if judges don't mean to be, they will naturally prefer the ones that do things the way they like them done, which means favouring there own branch, even when they try to be fair.

But at a certain point everyones forms are good, and depending on the judges the awards could go pretty much anywhere.

As a sport its worse then ball room dancing or figure skating IMO, at least there they can add some creativity and perform more difficult manouvers, forms are designed so that anyone can do them. Imagine judging a figure skating competition where everyone was restricted to the same basic pattern, one that was taught right from the beginning and anyone could do. Once you hit the top levels its not going to be possible to judge.

Now through in the politics and egos that plague the martial arts world, and it gets even messier...

 

[mango.man]

Judging forms as a competitive sport should just not be done, at least not traditional forms. It is far too subjective and biased, even if judges don't mean to be, they will naturally prefer the ones that do things the way they like them done, which means favouring there own branch, even when they try to be fair.

I disagree. When there is a published standard and competitors are told months in advanced that their form will be judges strictly based upon how it is done in XYZ Document and on ABC DVD than there should be no room for competitors or judges to insert their own biases or preferences.

That is what was done in this instance. Months earlier, competitors were told exactly what resources to use and to follow. Then just before competition, and as I understand it even after at least 1 division had already completed their division, those declared standards were changed.

Now even if there was a change, the competition should still have competed based upon the standards that they were directed to compete by. Then once the team was chosen based upon those standards, the changes could have been introduced and the team could have modified thier forms, prior to this year's World Poomse Championships.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I disagree. When there is a published standard and competitors are told months in advanced that their form will be judges strictly based upon how it is done in XYZ Document and on ABC DVD than there should be no room for competitors or judges to insert their own biases or preferences.

..and that is nearly Martial nor Art

 

[Andrew Green]

I disagree. When there is a published standard and competitors are told months in advanced that their form will be judges strictly based upon how it is done in XYZ Document and on ABC DVD than there should be no room for competitors or judges to insert their own biases or preferences.

Sounds like they should be hooked up to motion sensors to monitor timing, angles and positions. Whoever gets closest to the "perfect" model wins.

Of course that is certainly not what I would consider a worthwhile sport. There needs to be some form of personalization, otherwise we might as well just watch robots compete rather then people.

 

[zDom]

Buncha crap if you ask me.

Makes me glad I stepped off the TKD path and picked the HKD path.