Interesting observation in class

[Faye]

We were practicing forms yesterday in class. I realize that there is a BIG difference in technique for two green belts. This one humble, quiet guy, does his techniques very well, all the movements were very clean, head looks, etc. This other green belt, does it very sloppy. In fact, when we practice other things, just like basic side kicks or round house, this sloppy form guy does his kicks barely very sloppy too. I'm not to judge who's better than who, but it make me realize that perhaps its a good idea to wait for belt testing, I certainly would like to look good in lower belt, than to look sloppy for a higher belt. And then, I feel kind of bad for this blue belt guy, he has to perform his highest form, and I have to say it was very very bad. He is very hard working, I can tell, but he's very heavy weighted. His kicks and blocks are not cleanly executed at all. When he does his forms, his steps are extremely loud....
My place is not a mcdojo, i know, but i wonder if you work really hard, but you're not to that belt level, do they still promote you?

 

[Shodan]

Funny.......I was just having this very conversation with my husband Wednesday night!! I, by no means, want to sound like a braggard, but back when I started the martial arts in 1985, things were a lot more strict in studios. You had to have your form, techs, basics.....everything for your test down very well or they would either not test you or not pass you. As a result, sometimes you had to wait a long time between belts.......but people seemed a little more determined back then and would stay in and work harder to achieve the next rank. Today (and I am not saying this is true of everyone or every place), but I see a lot more sliding by for tests. People, especially kids, are promoted to the next ranks and sometimes their footwork isn't even that great yet. My own personal opinion is that studios (in general) have a harder time keeping students around for long if they do not see results. If someone is there and not promoted in a decent amount of time, they tend to give up I think- or decide the art is not for them. I've even seen this happen within my own two studios.......in fact, one man- who is in his 80's was just passed to purple belt- which is the 4th rank in our system. This guy just physically cannot get into some of the proper positions of our system.......but the instructor........a friend of mine.......passed him on his test because he said the man works very hard, which is true, and he thinks that's the best this man will ever be able to pull off the moves. At my other studio, I see kids and sometimes adults promoted to various ranks that are still moving sloppily, etc. On the plus side though- the instructor will only pass them up to a certain level like this. Once they reach the browns (three levels of brown before black), he slows them WAY down and makes them get their form up to par before he will pass them thru any further.

So I think there has been a change over the years in how strict the martial arts is. I always think it must be hard for an instructor to have a very hard-working student in his/her studio that is there all the time, does their best, etc, but who the instructor knows will never physically be very good......do they just keep promoting them despite this......or do they eventually have to tell the person that they have reached their limit? I know I was told back when I was a kid of age 11 that I'd never go any further with gymnastics cuz I was too tall.......that is when I switched to martial arts. But do instructors do this? Or do they feel obligated to keep promoting the person? It's got to be tough to be an instructor in this position.

:asian: :karate:

 

[The Kai]

It is a sticky wicket

You want the person to come in and enjoy the arts, However once you let 1 guy slide it is hard to enforce the standards any more>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[bignick]

this can be troublesome....i think sometimes you have to realize that martial arts is a personal journey...not everybody is going to be able to throw and hold a sidekick at head level all day long(myself included)...i think you need to compare the person to what they were before...have they improved? If they've been working hard and have improved a lot....maybe they should be promoted...on the other side....there isn't anything necessarily wrong with staying at the same level and improving even more before promoting

 

[terryl965]

In the Art no one person can do the exact technique, there will always be a slight difference between two people, you have to wiegh in every person skill level as well. Just because both are green belts mean they are the exact skill level, you have to judge each person on there merit and only there's. I myself only look at the individual not the whole during the test, some people can do 100 push-ups in 10 minute while the other takes 20, you would need to know the whole circumstances behind each instructors way of thinking... GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Jade Tigress]

In the Art no one person can do the exact technique, there will always be a slight difference between two people, you have to wiegh in every person skill level as well. Just because both are green belts mean they are the exact skill level, you have to judge each person on there merit and only there's. I myself only look at the individual not the whole during the test, some people can do 100 push-ups in 10 minute while the other takes 20, you would need to know the whole circumstances behind each instructors way of thinking... GOD BLESS AMERICA

I lean towards this thinking myself. Promoting should be based on the individuals abilities. Not everyone can perform the same techniques in the same way...maybe due to physical restrictions, mental capacity, age, whatever, and some people are naturally athletic and better able to perfect techniques. As long as that person is performing to the best of their ability you can't ask anymore from them.

In the circumstance described, the instuctor may be aware of training limitations for an individual that no one else knows about. A good barometer would be to look at how you are promoted. Are you doing everything to the best of your ability? If you are then you should be promoted even if your best is not as good as someone else's best.

HOWEVER...if people are obviously promoted on a time frame regardless of effort or abilty, that's a problem. No one should be sliding by, if it takes someone longer to do the required techniques to the best of their ability and it takes someone else less time, they should each be promoted on their own time frame. We should be graded according to our own ability and no one elses.

(I guess I'm sensitive because my son also takes Kung Fu and has neurological disorders which makes things harder for him to learn. Motor planning is a major challenge for him as well as balance. He works very hard and loves his class. He is doing his absolute best but there are younger, newer kids who find it much easier to learn things. It took my son about 9-10 months to be able to test for the next level. I don't care how long it takes. I'm not in any hurry for promotions. If it takes a long time to learn then it takes a long time. I only care that he is promoted when he has learned all the requirements and does them the best HE can.)

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Some students, no matter how hard they try or how long they train will never have the proprioception, coordination, flexibility and strength to do martial arts "well", i.e., make it look good.

An instructor has to weigh each student's merits. I have students who come to class faithfully, have an incredible attitude, work hard, show leadership...and their form lacks the luster of the naturally gifted person who shows up once a week and makes the technique look effortless.

Who gets the promotion?

I have a boy with a neurological disorder who trains arduously, never complains and fights well. He trys his best on his forms but his disrupted fine motor coordination will never allow him to have a good foot position when he kicks. At times he moves like raggedy andy. He's trained eight years.

Do I hold him back?

Or...do we take into account how much harder some of these people have to work in contrast to the average person? Do we remember that their efforts are sometimes double ours, and our frustration with our own challenges sometimes a fraction of theirs?

Some martial arts schools are filters. They weed out those that don't make the cut...whatever that "cut" might be. Other schools are pumps, and try to pump people up on martial arts and get them to the best level they can be. I can't find fault with either analogy.

In any vehicle you'll find pumps and filters working in concert. Maybe we should extend that analogy to our martial arts schools and train some to an elite level, while also working to train others to a standard of excellence they've never dreamed was possible.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Disco]

I use this analogy often when dealing with new students. Two college students, engineering types. One makes straight A's, a great "book man". The other struggles and barely makes C+ or a D. Both graduate and begin their careers, with as it happens, the same company. It comes to pass that the C/D students turns out to be very accomplished with practical application, while his counterpart, Mr "A" student is remise in his practical aptitude. Moral of the story is....... Ya can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but you sure can have some tasty bacon. :idunno: :burp: :cheers:

 

[shesulsa]

What they said.

So Hardheadjarhead and Sil Lum Tigerlady both made good points using neurologically challenged persons as excellent examples - and I could do the same because my son is also neurologically, developmentally and mentally challenged.

The gift of having someone like this in one's life is the new ability to see past ... ability. Growth and progression are very important and if we don't all just get over ourselves and stop pretending that no one has any problem whatsoever, we will forget our humanity.

To some, emotional trials are not just bumps in the road, but hurdles to be olympically charged upon. Why? Well....why not? To some, health and nutrition are simple, decision-based actualizations; to others, they are a demon which must be battled constantly.

One must have some understanding, I believe, in a person's growth and development. One must aid in coaching and know when to push and when to shove. That is, of course, if you're most interested in teaching, eventually, and turning out well-rounded people - not well-round pegs.

Agreed that curriculum requirements should be best met. I would then, like the others, ask you - what of the 40+ or 50+ student who had knee replacement surgery and is a fine martial artist, has excellent understanding of technique, philosophy and is well-rounded educationally in self-defense and the martial way? Do we hold this gem back because of a physical ailment when they have so much to offer?

We each have our monumental challenges and to each other, they may seem minimal. But we must remember how gargantuan ours might be to ourselves before we pass the mirror on.

IMVHO

 

[glad2bhere]

This makes for a very strong arguement against ranks, though. As a teacher I know that students do not progress uniformly, nor do all students excell at all skills. Everyone reading this post has had the experience of doing some growth activity whether its learning to read, or losing weight and hitting a plateau. We have also all had the experience of seeing people who do the same activity better or worse than do we ourselves. The minute one starts putting people into a series of ranks the unavoidable consequence is that as one gets higher and higher in ranks there are fewer and fewer people who are going to make the grade. Sorry, but that just life and the "Bell Curve" talking.
I once heard that out of 100 people who start off in a MA only 1 or 2 ever make it to BB. Now think about that. If people signing up for classes with visions of BB in their eyes knew that they had a 1-in-a-100 chance of making that dream come true, do you suppose they would sign that 3-year contract? Now certainly, you can ALWAYS lower your standards, but where does THAT get ya? Cheapening the BB so that everyone who pays for it gets one? The more I listen to the exchanges on this Net the more I realize that reverting to and staying with the old kwan system was the best thing I could have done. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Marginal]

So I think there has been a change over the years in how strict the martial arts is. I always think it must be hard for an instructor to have a very hard-working student in his/her studio that is there all the time, does their best, etc, but who the instructor knows will never physically be very good......do they just keep promoting them despite this......or do they eventually have to tell the person that they have reached their limit? I know I was told back when I was a kid of age 11 that I'd never go any further with gymnastics cuz I was too tall.......that is when I switched to martial arts. But do instructors do this? Or do they feel obligated to keep promoting the person? It's got to be tough to be an instructor in this position.

I'm not sure why. Usually the people who sputter along even with belt promotions end up quitting sooner or later. Not everyone needs or wants to measure up to some arbitrary bushidoesque code. The best students are always going to be the ones that want to measure up to your vision of what the MA's should be about. All you can do for the others is attempt to convince them that your way of thinking is valid. They'll either accept it or not, and if not, odds don't favor them ever becoming a grand master anyway.

 

[deadhand31]

I have to agree with jarhead and shesulsa. sometimes, there are things that just CAN'T be fixed. since the subject of neurological disorders has been touched upon, i'll share an experience in my school. we have an adult around 25 who has developmental disabilities. He really is unable to function at a 100% adult level. However, he works his tail off every class. He's friendly, he listens, he doesn't goof off, and always puts his best foot forward.

Recently, he retested for his deputy black belt. His major difficulty is nerves. Whenever he has pressure placed on him, his nerves cause him to lose concentration. It is for this reason that he failed his first deputy black test on forms. Last test, he went out there, and nerves or not, he did his form perfectly first try.

Given the challenge that this individual faces, can ANYONE really say that his belt was not earned?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Some of our students, no matter how they try, will never be able to kick above their waist with "proper" form (note the quotation marks to indicate the subjectivity of the notion). There are people who will never be able to acquire the flexibility required of certain styles. They lack nothing intellectually, suffer no pathology, they stretch every day and their best efforts come to failure.

We are all on that Bell Curve of life when it comes to certain physiological and intellectual attributes. Do we penalize those that show effort, and reserve the rank for the blessed?

What then when we ourselves (we few, we happy few) become aged or infirm? What should happen if we get unexpected arthritis, blow out a disc or a knee, or suffer some other such misfortune? Do we retire? Or do we continue to contribute? I find it difficult at my age to expect students to do what I can no longer do when they're limited as I am limited...yet they show a desire and a drive that is impressive, if not heroic. My limitations are brought on by too much mileage. Their limitations are an accident of birth.

I awarded a black belt to a Korean man who had his spine broken by a back kick when he trained in Seoul. He was twelve, and was kicked by his adult instructor in a sparring match. Afterwards he was told he'd never be able to get his black belt because of his inability to perform certain techniques. I promoted him, and he proved to be a superb instructor. He worked around his limitations once he understood that I was not one of them.

Regards,


Steve

 

[XxTKDPenguinxX]

Okay... I have the same trouble in my school and was JUST talking it over with the chief instructor since I will be opening a club for him in about a month.

We realize that there are some students that just have a talent for this. They don't seem to have to work very hard to accomplish good things.
We also realize that there are students (the majority) who work their tails off. They practice and you can tell that they practice away from school. They are the ones that have question after question and strive to do better.
Then there are the students that just get lazy. They go because their parents make them. They feel that they know the material well enough (and they usually do know it) but they don't "feel like doing it right now."

It is the latter of these these examples that drive me insane. It is these people that have worked their tails off, in the beginning, and obtained the status of Black Belt only to think that they don't have to work as hard anymore.

Well, I'll just say this... and everyone should take this to heart (because we all have seen it one way or another)... At the rank of black belt you are expected to work even harder than you did before!
In my club, there will not be anyone allowed to advance if they have not put in the effort. Trying and not having the ability to accomplish something is a hell of a lot different than not trying at all.

- "Quitters never win and winner never quit"