I need some advice.

K

Karate Dad

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My three daughters and I are studying American Kenpo. My daughters like to compete in tournaments and usually compete in 2 tournaments a month. The dojo we study at does not feel that tournament training (sport karate) is a big part of the curriculum and, as such, doesn't have a formal tournament team or specific tournament style karate training. I really don't have a problem with this. The primary reason I chose Kenpo for us to study is to provide my kids with the ability to defend themselves and to allow them the opportunity to learn the basic philosophy of a martial art which I think will serve them well in life.

My kids do run into some difficulties that I think specific training would help them resolve. This is most evident in sparring divisions. In particular they run into kids who are taller than they are who fire off a constant barrage of head high roundhouse kicks, pump side kicks or ax kicks followed by a reverse punch or a ridgehand. This seems to be a fairly effective way of point sparring. This is not something that they see at their dojo since it doesn't look like the most effective real-world fighting strategy. Since they don't see it at the dojo they have little opportunity to practice defeating it other than in the ring at a tournament. We talked with our sensei who told the girls how he would approach the problem, but he doesn't have anyone who fights that way so they can't really get the feel of how to work the timing.

So...what is my question? How do I go about getting them the help they need? I don't want to go to a different dojo since my eldest girls are scheduled to test for their adult black belt early next year (they are jr black belts now), plus tournaments aren't the main reason for us studying martial arts. Does anyone else have this type of issue? How is it resolved? Is it permissible to get private instruction from a different instructor? What rules of etiquette govern that situation? Is this normally done? I know our sensei gets training from other instructors but I get the impression that there is an unwritten rule that if you are a student of one sensei you don't go seeking help from another.

What advice can you give me?

Thanks,
 
I would talk to your instructor and tell him/her your concerns. Let him know that you are thinking of looking for some sport experience for your daughters. If you have a reasonable instructor he shouldn't have a problem with it since he doesn't offer something similar.

Then I would seek out the best sport karate school in the area and ask if your daughters can drop in on one of their sparring classes because "they are the best." Expect to pay a drop in fee.

That is how I would approach it.

Lamont

PS: You do American Kenpo and call your instructor "sensei?" That is odd, not unheard of, just odd.
 
Thanks Lamont for your insight...

Actually my instructor's title is "Grandmaster" but after reading some of the threads that the folks here have written on that particular title, I didn't really want to open that door...but since you asked I wanted to clarify...

John
 
First of all, I think it is great that you and your daughters are all involved in the martial arts.

The suggestion that you speak with the instructor is a good one, but if he/she does not stress tournament training, he/she may not have the background to train your daughters. This is not a knock on the instructor-everybody has their particular strengths and we naturally tend to continually work on them.

I suggest that you check with the instructor to see if either you can train just for tournaments at another school, or if the instructor can bring in guest instructors to your school. This is a relatively new trend in Taekwondo, where many of us instructors do not have a curriculum based on the latest trends in the sport aspect.

Good Luck!

Miles
 
Karate Dad - First, there are two ways to an opponents power, (1) close the gap (stop any kicks); (2) be far enough away that the kick misses. A good defense is a strong offense. If they are defending their position then they are not attacking. Work on combinations, stamina, focus, committment. It is proper to request permission from your instructor to seek outside assistance. Another instructor would normally contact your instructor to also seek permission to instruct you. Courtesy and respect are mandatory. As always you can serve only one Master. An instructor comes to feel that you are one of his children and may feel slighted. You must bring him/her into the "mix". Good luck. Traveler
 
Hello, It is nice your girls enjoy the tournments circuits. This keeps them training harder. It does build confidence. Your instructor knows the difference and does not want his school to be a (sport).

Alway to talk to your teacher first. Ask? Remember tournment style of fighting is very different from the real style of fighting. Kempo styles usually gets in close style of fighting, multiple strikes/hits and take downs/locks and so on.

Tournment fighting is different because it is a game only. (Tag )

Looks like you got two choices, Stay with your present school(limit their tournments)ask your tearcher first, or start all over at a school the forcus on tournments? ..Good luck ....Just one more thought......Aloha
 
There is a third option that hasn't been mentioned yet. Approach a couple of the girls opponents at a competition that fight in the style that the girls are having problems with and ask if they would be interested in sparring practice outside the dojo. Remind the girls that this is in addition to their kenpo training, not a part of it. If you think this could be an issue with the instructor discuss it with him.
 
I would readily admit it is fun to share the tournament experience as a family. My son,daughter and I did it for some years. But the most we did were about six tournaments a year. You are right, they do take preparation and at most we were able to train specifically only on our own time with a couple of weeks during class time before a tourny. This added alot of stress also, time-wise for school studies and competition-wise between brother and sister and friends. If your girls are doing it for themselves that's fine, but hopefully not for Dad, or because they are part of an activity that just keeps going by itself and they would be feeling they are letting someone else's expectations down. Just a thought also...

As far as traditional vs sport, there is a big difference even in TKD. Kicks to the head are very damaging and one of the reasons our instructor discouraged many from going to nationals. I and my children really preferred the traditional emphasis, workout hard, sparring, self-defense etc. We didn't get caught up in the national circuit but at a couple of times we could have. It takes a lot of time to train for national competition, it is completely different.

My son used to be amazing with the nunchuks, but his competition, Wayne, a young boy his age, had a year-round specific weapon/form coach in Canada. Wayne became an international competitor and my son nearly won over him once. But what is important? My son made the choice. It wasn't for him or our family. TW
 
Blindside had some excellent advice!

To answer this question Karate Dad:


My kids do run into some difficulties that I think specific training would help them resolve. This is most evident in sparring divisions. In particular they run into kids who are taller than they are who fire off a constant barrage of head high roundhouse kicks, pump side kicks or ax kicks followed by a reverse punch or a ridgehand. This seems to be a fairly effective way of point sparring. This is not something that they see at their dojo since it doesn't look like the most effective real-world fighting strategy. Since they don't see it at the dojo they have little opportunity to practice defeating it other than in the ring at a tournament. We talked with our sensei who told the girls how he would approach the problem, but he doesn't have anyone who fights that way so they can't really get the feel of how to work the timing.
Click to expand...

This is alot of what you will see at tournaments...flashy stuff, that if attempted in the real world, would most likely have the person doing it in a world of hurt. I've been to many events, both to watch and compete, and I have seen exactly what you're talking about. People leaping forward, guard down, throwing a backfist, that didn't even come close, and they'd get a point. Depending on the division, whatever is thrown..punch, kick, etc., does not have to make contact, but only come close enough to score. And yes, this is a problem that your kids will face if they're fighting someone taller, as the other person will have that reach advantage.

In closing I'd like to say, Please don't let this discourage your kids from competing, as it'll be a great learning experience for them. Keep in mind that we are talking about 2 different things here...competition and SD. As I said, many things that they will be seeing at the event will be much different from what is thrown in a SD situation.

Mike
 
Thanks everyone..you all had some good thoughts on this. I'll talk to my instructor and see what he says.

I read TigerWoman's post with interest because you do see some kids out there who just don't really seem to want to be there. We do have some house rules about competition. The first is that you need to attend your regular classes at the karate studio. That is their primary training...not tournaments. The second rule is that they need to maintain a certain grade level at school. For my high school aged daughters that means a minimum of "B". (Which were the grades they were getting prior to starting competition) If they can't keep their grades up, then they need to devote more time to studies and that time will come from their tournament training time. This was all worked out before they started competing and they fully endorse the process. We try to keep these things fun...I've seen too many examples of kids on the circuit being verbally berated by their parents or coaches...that's not the experience I am looking for.

Win or lose all I ask of my kids is to have fun, show respect and be good sports.

Thanks
John
 
Karate Dad said:
Thanks everyone..you all had some good thoughts on this. I'll talk to my instructor and see what he says.

I read TigerWoman's post with interest because you do see some kids out there who just don't really seem to want to be there. We do have some house rules about competition. The first is that you need to attend your regular classes at the karate studio. That is their primary training...not tournaments. The second rule is that they need to maintain a certain grade level at school. For my high school aged daughters that means a minimum of "B". (Which were the grades they were getting prior to starting competition) If they can't keep their grades up, then they need to devote more time to studies and that time will come from their tournament training time. This was all worked out before they started competing and they fully endorse the process. We try to keep these things fun...I've seen too many examples of kids on the circuit being verbally berated by their parents or coaches...that's not the experience I am looking for.

Win or lose all I ask of my kids is to have fun, show respect and be good sports.

Thanks
John
Click to expand...
Well John hello and after reading your post and the answer that the good folks here gave you not much else to say but this saying, I tell my kids and my students that win or lose during there match they have already won for only about three percent of all MA'ers have the nerve to go into a ring knowing the opponant is trying to hurt them. So they already won nematter how the outcome is.

Twin Dragons MAs
Terry Lee Stoker
 
To enter into competition or not is a personal choice I think, so your daughters should be given the opportunity if they desire it, but I have to agree that flashy high kicks look amazing but can be impractical for self defense, especially against someone who knows how to effectively deal with them. However, as long as you know that competition is different than the street, and you enjoy it, I say go for it!

I come from a non-tournament Kenpo school and while attending a Kenpo tournament was surprised to see a Kenpo practitioner winning the women's sparring throwing very high kicks. In the fight I watched she was quite successful. Her opponent, who when she connected with her fists appeared to be much more powerful, was having a lot of trouble dealing with her kicks and foolishly stayed within kicking range and eventually lost the fight. I kept thinking "CLOSE GROUND ~ FOLLOW THE KICKS BACK IN AND WORK YOUR HANDS :boxing: !" I was so frustrated for her. She finally found one opportunity to get in and with her hands threw two powerful strikes, but she eventually lost because she seemed to be dizzied by the fancy kicks, and had she taken just the advice in my head LOL or been allowed to finish the fight once she got in, I think the outcome would have been different, but that is the way it goes in competition. So the fancy kicker got the big flashy trophy to go with her amazing kicks, and the other girl, who with different rules may have won in the street, went home empty handed.

If all else fails (switching schools or whatever) and you want to work some stuff with your daughters there are at least a couple of things you can try. Work with them on their timing and teach them to close ground. Have them practice lunging in (like in fencing) so they can get into punching and grappling range and negate the kicks and then do what they know. If they get caught in kicking range teach them to follow the kick back in (at the point where the kick is returning) and then work the body from there.

Good luck and let us know how they do!

MJ :)

 
So...what is my question? How do I go about getting them the help they need? I don't want to go to a different dojo since my eldest girls are scheduled to test for their adult black belt early next year (they are jr black belts now), plus tournaments aren't the main reason for us studying martial arts. Does anyone else have this type of issue? How is it resolved? Is it permissible to get private instruction from a different instructor? What rules of etiquette govern that situation? Is this normally done? I know our sensei gets training from other instructors but I get the impression that there is an unwritten rule that if you are a student of one sensei you don't go seeking help from another.

What advice can you give me?
Click to expand...
I believe that there is a lot of sound advice that has already been offered, to which I would like only to contribute to,

I understand that some students have a desire to compete, and that should be guided and embraced, as younger students in the martial arts are often looking for recognition, for their dedication and test their abilities in competition.

Younger students often see /hear / know of most other sports, Train twice a week and compete on the week end, i.e. foot ball, soccer, netball, or prepare for a special event i.e., like dancing, gymnastics ect, So often there is a need to compete in competitions, So if competing motivates the student to continue with there martial arts training then that’s a good thing, provided that its also supported with the Instruction, and the lessons that are associated with tournaments i.e. formalities, rules, sportsman like behavior and skills ect , a purpose, goal orientated objective for competing in the chosen events .

Additionally there is possible negative qualities and skills that can be developed whilst competing in tournaments which also needs to be monitored.
.
Although for a student (junior) to compete in competition and be successful preparation is a must both physically and mentally,

Understanding that time doesn’t always permit to have elective type training (sport karate) whilst trying to study a comprehensive system like Kenpo .

I’m sure that if you approach your instructor and share with him your views /and concerns that he will be able to give you, a plan of attack, whether it be private lessons, or the assistant of senior students/ instructors within your club,skills and drills which may need attendtion ,recommendations of Others that may be able to assist you, Or perhaps revaluating your daughters goals i.e., their adult black belt. I also understand that the reasons that we start in the martial arts often change as we progress with our study.

Just a thought

cheers
Click to expand...
 
Karate Dad
On the original question of this thread I agree that you may need to talk with your instructor once again and ask that he teach some tournament techniques to your children when he has time. Because many instructors do not like their students going to other schools you may run afoul of him if you take your children somewhere else to learn poin sparring. Then again he may ok the idea of takeing them else where if he dose not like tournaments and tournament techniques.
 
Hi Karate Dad,

I think your decision really rests on how much tournaments mean to your daughters. If they're way into it, well, ok, but if it's something they need to be encouraged to engage in, I wouldn't push it. As you know, point sparring really is like tag, and a type of tag that will teach bad habits SD-wise if it becomes a focus for a stretch of time. High double-kicks and quick backfists (accompanied by hearty kiai's) make for almost instant points but are terrible SD entries. On the other hand, continuous sparring is important to SD skill development, so I hope their teacher offers that.

Here's a thought: If your daughters seek competition and you're willing to go so far as training them at another school or in another art, consider forgoing Karate, TKD, or Kenpo and send them to a BJJ school. Jiu Jitsu is low impact (as long as you know when to tap!), tournaments are common, and your girls will be gaining SD skills, rather than losing them.

Personally, I'd keep them in Kenpo and forego the tournaments. Soon enough they'll be working for their adult black and that should carry enough reward and effort to keep them occupied.

Edit: I'd like to add that if they do decide to continue with the tournaments, just go out and buy a book or DVD or two for some pointers. Benny the Jet's Techniques for Fighters served me really well. It's an inexpensive solution that will yield results. And tell your girls to use angles--most of the time point strikes can be avoided and countered with footwork. The FMA guys do great stuff on this --try putting a zig-zag--series of 45 degree lines-- of tape on a flat surface, and the girls follow the lines with their feet, switching stances. This can also be done with an asterisk-shape.
 
This thread was split du to a different topic being discussed
Please go on with your ideas on What DAD should do
 
Thanks everyone...there was some valuable information in these posts, and alot of support. There were a couple of posts that stuck in my head...

MJ: Thanks for the description of the technique...we will have to practice that a bit...

Clapping_Tiger: the kids and I worked on this very move this evening at our studio. Once you get the footwork and timing right it is extremely effective.

psi_radar: Thanks for the name of the DVD...I'll have to watch that one.

John
 
Actually it looks like some of the posts I mentioned are in a different thread now...LOL. You have to be quick to keep up around here!!!

John
 
A video for sparring tips from a top-flight kenpo instructor is Bob White's, which is very good. It is also available over at www.kenponet.com in the shop.
Incidentally Mr. White occaisionally posts on this board.

Another poster from this board who offers very good products on this topic is Dan Anderson.

Lamont
 
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