How wouldn you break this up?

[Kittan Bachika]

Apparently they were fighting over a seat.
http://youtu.be/BBdRFwchuGY

There is also a description from the guy who recorded the fight.

In this case, I would have grabbed hte other guy's free arm to keep from beating the guy.

 

[frank raud]

Rear naked choke would be faster. But it is not my job to break up fights between strangers. A large part of self defense is avoiding bad situations.

 

[Tez3]

Probably quite hard to break up a fight if you are on the wrong side of the closed doors!
As Frank said, not our job to break up fights, I'd think differently if it were an attack on a defenceless person but a fight I'd leave alone unless my MMA judge head clicked on and I started mentally scoring them lol.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

We all have been in situations where friends or relatives get together and then an argument occurs and it looks like things might get physical. It is good to know and to be able use techniques where you can pull people apart before they do something stupid.

Other than that we mind our own business unless of course it is old guy guy getting jumped.

 

[Mark Jordan]

In that situation, I wouldn't break up that fight either.

 

[Carol]

Nothing wrong with being a good witness. Calling 911 is a good start...

 

[Brian King]

Any day we can witness violence, depending on our home life or if we hang out doing stupid things with stupid people at stupid places or if paid action professionals and so paid to break the three S rule, even minding our own business in a totally safe and violence free environment with the advent of you tube we can now see subway fights to IHOP fights to fights on buses. This provokes some thought and comment on the witnessing of violence and the desire/need to perhaps intervene.

Violence comes in all sizes and flavors. War zones to kitchen tables to the cubical down the hall. Many of the skills needed to accomplish a snatch vary from those needed to deal with the mugger which vary from those needed to deal with Uncle Bob’s drinking and ranting during the Christmas dinner. Breaking up fights is a specialty. To do so safely and gracefully requires in my opinion study, thought, and practice. Before practicing there are a couple of thought exercises a person might want to think about. For example, the fight you are about to enter, does it involve one or more of your friends? Do the people know each other, are they related (by blood, by marriage, by affiliation? Are there weapons including weapons of opportunity present. Is the fight social, gang/criminal, drug or alcohol induced? Is somebody getting injured? Do you have an exit plan should you suddenly be needing one? Do you have a duty or obligation to get involved? Do you have other family members near that might hinder your responses or become endangered through your participation in the violence?

Some drills and progressions.
With these thoughts in mind it is relatively easy to come up with some drills and exercises that will give a person some experience dealing with the breaking up and deescalation of fights. Some examples from different Systema classes and seminars I have attended. A three or four person drill, which will be easier for those with basketball experiences. Two people face off with a third person between them. One of the two facing off is the more aggressive of the two, their job is to try to get in the others face and perhaps chest bump, or finger in the face, or forehead rub...that sort of action. Their job in this example is not to actively engage anyone in a fight but just get chest to chest, not head butt, no throwing punches, just get in and threaten to beat up verbally. The other person in this ‘practice’ face off also has a job. There job is to not mind if the other person gets into their face, not eagerly looking for the confrontation but not afraid of it either, if that makes sense. The third person also has a job. Their job is to stay between the two ‘warring’ factions. To, by the use of their body, keep the two people separated. They are not allowed to grab hold of anyone, they are not allowed to trip, take down, lock up, or throw anyone. They cannot use any offensive techniques at all, just as much as possible keep their bodies between the other two. So one is aggressive, the other is willing and the third is separating. Sounds easy LOL, not so much in practice or real life. Working the drill people will soon come up with strategies and tactics that help. All three people should be monitoring what is going on with their internal states and emotions during all phases and positions (the three should periodically switch roles) of this simple drill. This drill can also introduce awareness aspects and training pretty easily by the prearranged introduction of weapons or having the fight ‘kick-off’ (have all three close their eyes prior to the start of an enhanced/advanced version. The instructor or a fourth person touches one on the shoulder or hand, that person and a prearranged signal will attack either of the other two) So, for example the drill is going on but at a loud clap or whistle it is now fight on, one against two, two against one or just as often free for all.

Another progression, is to now joining the fight in progress. Again a three person drill. Two people lock up in a stand up grapple (it can and also should be ran in transition to/from the ground, or from the ground with one mounted etc). They are wrestling for position but not actually trying to kill each other, just get the stronger position. The third person at their whim says freeze or stop or now..whatever. At this command both wrestling partners instantly freeze but keep the same balance, the same struggle, the same contact. Do not fix the balance in anyway. Hold that position, that snap shot momentary picture of a fight. The third partner now walks around the battling two, The third persons job is to somehow, depending on the drill instructions, take down one or both the combatants. If the third person doesn’t ‘know’ either combatant perhaps their job is to then take this four legged off balance beast to the ground (pretty easy if you learn how to use one of them against the other and add your strength/weight to the problem) Perhaps the drill states one of the combatants is a friend or relative, then obviously the drill might be to either pull one off the other or to take down one down to give the advantage to your friend/relative.

Some hints, for the third person walking around the combatants looking for balance points or excess tension, those tension spots can be hit for great effect. IF one person has their back engaged or one or both legs fully tensed holding themselves upright against the others throw, a strong hit to that tension will often collapse that person with the other ‘falling’ on top of that person. You can also ‘pop that tension bubble’ by hitting the others persons support or resistance to that tension. Think one of the plastic bubbles in bubble wrap. You can pop them from either side - the curved side or the straight side. Any crossed limbs are also good two for one shot targets, knees and elbows are often available for manipulation and strikes. Manipulating the head of one or both combatants is often rewarding (sometimes if you do not like either combatant you can strike one in the head or other bony part and that hit will cause a head butt or incidental strike to the other again getting a twofer.

Some practical experiences.

If a person is carrying pepper spray, a cloud burst that drifts into the combatants often can cause a disruption of the violence. In the early 1990’s I was walking by a street confrontation/beating in the downtown of a major Washington city. There was a group of females fighting on a street corner. A group of Samoan ladies of ten or twelve was beating another group of Caucasian ladies. Egging them on and cheering them was a group of about seven or eight males. All involved looked to be around twenty or thirty years old with a few teens mixed into the groups. Being by myself and not involved and not wanting to get involved (involving yourself into social beat downs is often not a good idea) but seeing some of the gals on the receiving end of the street lesson were going to be seriously injured (heads were being repeatedly bounced and kicked on the concrete) I decided to get involved in a limited way. With all the excitement and yelling it was easy for me to figure wind and place my self so that the wind would be drifting thru the groups fighting and cheering. I then walking ‘thru’ the outside of the group on my way across the street. I had a small pepper spray can held low by my leg nozzle down and just let out puffs of a second or two bursts. The resulting clouds drifted unseen and unheard over the group leaving many in a fit of coughing and choking. This interruption allowed the gals taking the beating to disengage and leave the area (at least from what I could tell from up the block).

I bounced for number of years, mostly by myself with between 150 to 350 people not counting the bands and staff. People often commented on how quickly I was able to get the fights to break them up and escort the fighters outside. In truth, I walked to every single fight and was watching the entire time. Take your time when you are going to break up a fight. Let them tire themselves out a bit, let them bleed a little. See who else on the sidelines is also involved. Watch the fight and decide how and when you are going to intervene if you decide to physically do so. What often worked for me was to see who was losing the fight. That would be the person I pulled and tossed first. They often acted like they still wanted to fight but actually were grateful that they were now being tossed...otherwise they would kick the others butt or at least that is what they were saying as they walked to door. Getting to the door I would tell them that it would be best for them to leave as the other(s) would soon be leaving as well and that the police were already on the way. I then would head back to the ‘winner(s)’ of the fight, smiling and chuckling and shaking my head and perhaps rolling my eyes, like the people I just tossed were total losers and I was just coming up to them to find out how it started. “Dude, what the (insert street words here) was that?” What did they/he/she do to you?...that sort of hey I am on your side in this kind of conversational almost bantering tone. But I would approach them so that when contacted I was strong and they were a little off, never face to face. As we were talking I would be gently heading them to the door. Most times we were 3/4’s the way to the door before they realized that they were also being walked out for the night, with me telling them it was nothing personal, bar policy that all involved have to call it a night, the cops have been called and are on the way, No Nah, you’re not the bad guy here - just have to call it a night or go somewhere else, come back tomorrow and have a beer blah blah blah whatever it took. If you tried to take out the person that is winning the fight the ‘loser’ often suddenly gets brave and gets back into the fight or tries a quick punch or three while you have the winner tied up. The ‘winner’ is often tougher and wants to stay into the fight making them tougher to tie up and walk out while the loser is often eager even if they do not want to show it. Walking out the loser gives them an excuse and saves face. Walking out the winner loses them face...

When breaking up fights really try to see who all is involved and to what extent. Two guys fighting and a few others watching and you go to intervene only to find out that a couple of those watching the fun are teammates of one or both of the fighters letting off steam from a winning/losing hockey, rugby, football, chess tournament can leave you in a serious all against one brawl with you being the one. If you can ascertain that others watching the fight are known to one or both of the fighters you can often convince them to break up the fight for you. Walk up to them, making some eye contact prior to physical contact and say sympathetically something like “Hey, I know your buddies are just f’n around but the house called the cops”...shrugging your shoulders saying “its protocol”. Why don’t you round up those boys and go to (the name of the bar up the street that you don’t really like).

Getting inside both combatants OODA loops is essential as is remaining calm and not letting the arousal of the combat effect your own inner state. Had one night in the bar where I walked out 27 different people in the three hours that I worked before we closed for the night two hours early. The energy is contagious.

You have to be careful wrapping up one or the other. I never liked locking or chokes until I got the two separated and I was sure that I could handle the one I had and that the other was momentarily disengaged (often making eye contact with them was enough, like getting a big cats attention- the trick is distracting them while not ending up on the menu) Done wrong, you risk wrapping up one and giving the other free shots. If a weapon is involved, congratulations, you could now be facing manslaughter charges.

Summery
It is tricky work and takes a knack to break up a fight. In the military we said...To engage a target you become a target. To get involved in a fight you become involved in the fight. Think it thru and in my opinion protect your own family first. This might mean a range of responses from calling the authorities anonymously and trying to be a good witness to taking an opportunity of getting the trash off your street. Do not be in too much of a hurry, better they bleed a bit than you bleed a lot. Join the fray if you decide you must or you are paid to, from strength and knowledge, not from fear or the feeling that ‘something must be done’. Always keep aware of weapons or possible weapons. Anytime you are in physical contact with one or more of the combatants you should always be feeling with any of the contact for weapons. Do not get drawn into the drama, do not worry about right and wrong or who did what, if you intervene have a goal. If that means knocking out one or more of the people fighting then do it. If it means taking the group or an individual down to the ground then do so. If it means grabbing one and forcibly distancing them from the other, do it. Have it in your mind what you are going to accomplish. Have a clear goal in mind. This translates subconsciously, nervous system to nervous system, and makes for cleaner more decisive safer work. Figure out articulation now before you get involved. Know how to talk to the authorities so you do not get locked up along with the combatants (much easier if sober and clean) and have an attorneys phone number or at least their name, best is a prior working relationship with them so that you can call them late at night/early in the morning and get bail set and paid. Do not say aloud in public your name or address when the police ask, get a bit of distance from the crowd before answering. The people around might not be on your side and you do not I assume want visitors asking that you please not get involved and what a nice family and house you have...Be grateful for any thanks that you might get and understand that many will not be appreciative and a great many of those will be resentful. Enjoy looking in the mirror and knowing that you did the best you could and learn the lessons that violence and being a witness to violence brings. Cleanse before during and after the violence, whether a witness or a participant, being near or a part of a violent confrontation leaves crud that needs to be worked out physically, spiritually and mentally.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Champ-Pain]

I would use - one or both combatants, in my next - "How to Choke" instructional video... instead of using my own brother.

 

[Thesemindz]

I wouldn't break this up. It's not my job, or my problem. I don't get involved in other people's violent disagreements.

Now, if I was on the bus and a grown man attacked a small pregnant woman, or a child, or an old man, or something equally repugnant, then yes, I'd probably take action. But the action I'd take would be cruel and decisive. I would hit the attacker, from behind, in the head, neck, groin, knees, and spine, with a heavy weapon, until he collapsed to the ground unable to continue his assault. I'm not going to get in a sparring match with a violent sociopath. I'm going to put him down, hard. If it isn't time for that, it isn't time for violence.


-Rob

 

[Aikicomp]

I wouldn't.

Very silly and dangerous to get between two people fighting.

My wife's uncle tried that once, trying to be the peacemaker.....and got killed for it.

Dangerous, very dangerous.

Michael

 

[Balrog]

Mace, or a stun gun.

 

[Flea]

I might try a little verbal de-escalation if things were still in the talking stage. But there would be a lot of conditions to that - everyone involved would have to be sober, not an educational beatdown scenario, with several other neutral witnesses present, and an exit strategy for me.

As others have said, if it were truly predatory in nature and one party were legitimately helpless, I would intervene with a 911 call.

Otherwise? No thanks. I'm ridiculously altruistic as it is. I'm not going to endanger my life, especially if it's a group of strangers.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Brian gave probably the best description. I especially like that he used the OODA loop, which is used all too infrequently in the martial arts.

Me, I would most likely just call 911, and stay clear.

But if for some reason, I HAVE to break it up, I'd have two people, like in the scenario, but one of us would be moving the victim and the other would apply head control.

 

[WC_lun]

Like many of the others, I would not break this up. It is a couple of guys being idiots and I'm not gonna put myself in harms way to keep an idiot from hurting himself. It would be different if I knew one of the idiots...er guys, it was a case of victimization, or I got paid to break up such nonsense.

 

[Cyriacus]

I wouldnt. Honestly, id just stand there wondering why only one of them was really doing anything.


Buuuuut, if i was going to;
Id take the one in blue down with a Rear Sentry Takedown, then shove the other one back, and give them a chance to disperse. If they attempted to engage me, or reengage each other, id try and counter with either a few sharp blows to the Solar Plexus, or some throws, more to move them away again, as oppose to throwing them face first into the hard floor
If they continued to resist, id attempt to force one back, then take the other in an Arresting Hold to one arm, and lead them off the Train. If they attempted to harm me in the process, thats when throwing to the floor comes into play, albeit not too hard. Concrete floors would not be fun to be thrown on to.
I doubt it would go on for that long, however, before Security or the Police turned up.

This is just offhand. I could probably go over that and rethink it/improve it, but id prefer to keep my fresh thoughts on there, since if i were to intervene, i wouldnt have time to plan out my response, then rethink it a few times for refinement.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I would also like to say that, as a rule, I don't break up fights. I will try to stop an ASSAULT, but to try to interfere with two people intent on rending one another asunder is a fool's errand.

 

[chinto]

I would most likely dial 911 and stand completely clear. .. In NYNY... I would NOT do more then call 911. I understand they have some very screwy self defense and assault laws back east I understand.
I would not want to go to prison for trying to brake something like that up, I understand Rikers island jail....sucks!

the other thing to remember people is its not your job or responsibility to intervene in such a fight. you will provably have problems with the cops most of the time after, and well you can literally get killed trying. A lot of that type of person has a knife and other weapon with them.