How Much Grappling Do You Need?

[MJS]

On another forum, someone posted a clip of Wing Chun, specifically of Emin Boztepe. It showed him doing some ground stuff, and then the subject of him and William Chueng (sp) came up. Someone posted that what Emin was showing was stuff that would work fine against an unskilled grappler, but not against someone who was a solid grappler.

Now, I'll say that I'm not looking to turn this into a debate on WC or Emin. I simply used that as a reference point to build on my main question, which is as follows:

How much grappling do you feel is enough, for a self defense situation? Now, unless we're mindreaders, its kinda hard to tell how much skill someone has until we actually start to engage them. While it may be physically impossible for me to be prepared for anything that comes my way, I like to always try to prepare for the worse case scenario.

Now, does this mean that I need to invest 20yrs in a BJJ school? Or can I take a few key elements, drill the hell out of them, and call it good? Will everyone that we face be a pro-boxer, a BJJ world champ, a Muay Thai kicker? Probably not. So if we go that route, having some average to above average skill would suffice. But, if you look at my above comment, if we want to be as prepared as possible, we just may need to invest that 20yrs.

So...where do you draw the line? For me, I'm far from a BJJ master. I feel that I have enough to hold my own against the average person. Hopefully, I wouldn't end up on the ground, but if I did, have enough to get back up or survive to a point.

 

[7starmarc]

From a self-defense point of view, I believe that you need enough to

a) avoid being taken down
b) avoid/escape some of the more common grappling moves/holds

Basically, enough to defend against a grappling attempt and get out. Since that is the overreaching goal in self defense.

How many holds do you need? I would say close to zero. Maybe one or two might help, particularly if you're in the position to need to facilitate someone else's escape (child, elderly, etc.). In that case, however, you would also probably be justified (and safer) in using a higher level of force to incapacitate the attacker without needing to grapple with them.

Also, keep in mind, in a self-defense situation, you are not limited by the rules of grappling sports. You are allowed to bite, manipulate small joints, strike vital regions (e.g. eye gouge, groin strike, trachea strike) in order to escape. This changes the game and the technical components of grappling to no small degree. It may actually worthwhile to think about that, so that you are mentally prepared to go to such lengths if you need to, as many sport MAists are conditioned against such "dirty fighting".

Actual grappling as a means of self defense, as has been discussed here previously, can be of questionable worth. If you subscribe to the "+1" idea (that there is likely at least one more attacker than you are aware of), then going to ground and trying to submit someone is a surefire route to the hospital or worst.

 

[Mark L]

Enough grappling experience so that you don't panic when your down, so that you can get to and maintain a dominant position, so that you can end an encounter without having to beat the guy to a bloody pulp (unless that's what you have to do), so you can get back up and take off.

 

[punisher73]

I would say that you should be familiar with the basics to say the least. It would include some of the following

1) Takedown offense/defense
2) Heiarchy of positions
3) Positional escapes
4) Armbar, triangle choke, keylock (how to apply so you know how to counter and avoid)
5) Getting back up to your feet

I would also say train in some way that you understand the difference in strategy and mindset between a grappler and striker. Again, I realize the UFC is not the "be all" of MA's. But, it can give a good reference point.

Sprawl and Brawl: Style used by Chuck Liddell, he knows enough about the ground to avoid it and get back to his feet. Also, understands where the submission attempts would occur to avoid them.

Ground and Pound: Alot of wrestlers use this with great success, they take you down and then use positional dominance to hold you down and punch you out.

Submission Grappling: Many BJJer's when they compete MMA, will use strikes to supplement their grappling to create holes to get the submission, but it's the submission that is their goal many times.

I think if you are a striker, you should stick to a "sprawl and brawl" type strategy, know enough to get back to your feet where you are strongest. But, I think it is important to realize that not all "grapplers" just use submission when you are on the ground, as is seen by the "ground and pound" crowd.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'd say you only need enough to have an understanding of how a grappler might attempt to engage you, and to be comfortable on the ground and not panic if you end up there. Do enough of it so you have some level of comfort and familiarity with it in a general sense. I do not believe that it is critical to have a high level of grappling/groundwork skill, for self defense purposes.

From a self-defense perspective, groundwork skills should focus on breaking away to regain the feet, and either continue the fight from there or else escape.

 

[Deaf Smith]

All above are right.

Understanding what they can do and how to counter is the most important skill, even if you don't intend on going to the ground.

In fact, if you don't intend on going to the ground, you have better be able to counter their attempts so you can keep striking, or if it happens anyway, you can break contact and get off the ground fast.

Knowedge is power (along with skill and the willingness to use it!)

Deaf

 

[chinto]

ok, first of all on the street you better be looking to stay on your feet no matter what! (on the ground the attackers buddies will kick your ribs and head in!! ) the other thing is I have had skilled grappler's tell me that on the street they want to get up as fast as possible and put the other attacker/attackers on the ground in such a way as hopefully they got some thing broken on them badly! but even good wrestlers and judo and jujitsu and aikido men have said the same thing to me.

 

[Jai]

agreed on all points. You need enough training that when you do get taken down two things happen. 1- You do not panic, you panic and you will be in a bad way, doesn't matter if your attacker is alone or has buddies. 2- you have wits enough not to roll on the ground with your attacker, and your focus is getting back on your feet. Never take the chance and assume you know more then the person that just took you down.

 

[KenpoTex]

Q: how much do you need?
A: more than the other guy.

 

[Twin Fist]

learn to sprawl, to avoid the bum rush, other wise?

none

 

[terryl965]

That depends, are you going to be on the ground?

 

[KenpoTex]

My last post was somewhat flippant (though not necessarily inaccurate) so I'll go a little more in depth now that I have a second.

I believe we are discussing an issue that goes far beyond the scope of this particular topic.
The question is: "How much of ____ do you need?" (fill in the blank: grappling, striking, weapons defense, etc.).

I believe the answer really depends on your mindset. If you are the person who trains in martial-arts mostly as a hobby but also "so I can defend myself against the average person" (or whatever your little phrase happens to be). Then you probably don't "need" much more than a sprawl and a couple of basic transition techniques...maybe a mount escape or two, a mount-to-guard transition, a couple of guard escapes, etc.

On the other hand, if you train primarily or exclusively to be able to protect yourself when you are being targeted as the potential victim of a criminal assault, you should strive to be as skilled in every aspect as it is possible for you to be with due consideration given to your capabilities.
This means you should be able to strike, clinch, takedown, avoid being taken down, grapple, defend against weapons in a realistic manner, and use weapons (gun, knife, & impact weapons) in an efficient and effective manner.
You have to assume that you're not going to just face the average joe (I personally feel that "average" criminals are much more dangerous than most people give them credit for and are more than a match for the great majority of "martial artists").
If one trains with the above mindset then he/she never reaches the point where they are "good enough." There is always room for improvement in the individual skillsets and in the integration of those skillsets into a streamlined fighting continuum.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that it's ideal to be rolling around on the ground in a real fight, the point I want to make is that until you have trained with someone who has a good takedown game and knows how to grapple, you probably don't realize how vunerable you are in this area and how fast you can end up in very serious trouble. As we touched on in the MMA for LEOs thread, these types of skills are becoming more and more prevalent as more people are exposed to MMA type training.