How many and differances in Shaolin Kempo

[James Kovacich]

I heard of several Shaolin Kempo's. Ralph Castro, Fred Vilarri, Steve Demasco and Christopher Geary's and probably some more. Are they related or maybe just spinoffs of other systems? I tried the search function but it lead me to every thread that had Shaolin Kempo in it. Thanx.

 

[Karazenpo]

I heard of several Shaolin Kempo's. Ralph Castro, Fred Vilarri, Steve Demasco and Christopher Geary's and probably some more. Are they related or maybe just spinoffs of other systems? I tried the search function but it lead me to every thread that had Shaolin Kempo in it. Thanx.

Hello akja, Ralph Castro came from William Chow and Ed Parker, making his shodan under Ed Parker. He spells his Shaolin KeNpo with an 'n'. Fred Villari came from Nick Cerio from George Pesare from Sonny Gascon to John Leoning and Adriano Emperado (Kajukenbo). Steve Demasco came from Fred Villari and Christopher Geary originally came from Charles Mattera who came from Fred Villari. That's it in a nutshell. So, Ralph Castro's Shaolin KeNpo, spelled with an "n" is a seperate animal. Shaolin KeMpo, spelled with an "m" are all subsystems of Sonny Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a distinct but direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. Hope this clears things up.

 

[James Kovacich]

Hello akja, Ralph Castro came from William Chow and Ed Parker, making his shodan under Ed Parker. He spells his Shaolin KeNpo with an 'n'. Fred Villari came from Nick Cerio from George Pesare from Sonny Gascon to John Leoning and Adriano Emperado (Kajukenbo). Steve Demasco came from Fred Villari and Christopher Geary originally came from Charles Mattera who came from Fred Villari. That's it in a nutshell. So, Ralph Castro's Shaolin KeNpo, spelled with an "n" is a seperate animal. Shaolin KeMpo, spelled with an "m" are all subsystems of Sonny Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a distinct but direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. Hope this clears things up.

So most of them are related then. I could of sworn that Castro used an M too. Did he always use an N?

Thanx. James

 

[Thunderbolt]

Christopher Geary originally came from Charles Mattera who came from Fred Villari.

Christopher Geary??? you mean the SHIHAN guy who is discussed in another forum.?? http://www.kempokarate.com/shihan/index3.cfm

when i went to his web site, i can assure you that he is from Nick Cerios's kenpo organization because of the patch which he put on his right shoulder. All you have to do is to look at his own portray in 2001

don't you even regconize your own *brother* from another planet in the same organization.???? just kidding

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey guys, as you can tell from my time on MT I 'try' not to pass judgement on others unless I'm pushed into a corner but if I am, I will respond accordingly. To each their own, as long as people mind their own business and don't hurt anyone in the propagation of the arts. Wasn't it Christ that said; "He who has not sinned shall throw the first stone." Believing in that, I have discovered many hypocrits in life and I'm sure you guys have discovered the same. Yes, Ralph Castro always used the 'n', Shaolin Kenpo and Shihan Christopher Geary teaches Mattera's Shaolin Kempo with, I'm sure, some additions and modifications. He met Professor Cerio at a seminar and/or tournament, I can't recall, put on by the USSD. As stated so many times before and its really getting old by now, but Cerio was contacted by someone and after the conversation he immediately cut all ties with the USSD. I conversed with Lou Angel at one time and he totally stands by his promotion of Geary. However, it is not my place to comment on this so please just contact Lou Angel and trust me, he will respond to you forthwith. He is not a guy to play games with. As far as Sonny Gascon goes, he never takes a cent from anyone and pays his own expenses from what I've seen and understood, including his trip this month to Cerio's legacy memorial! How many SGM's with his reputation that you know would do that? Again, I don't speak for Sijo Gascon, so as I stated with Lou Angel, take it up with 'Sonny' personally. Thunderbolt, this is not directed to you, I'm just making a blanket statement to everyone. You've always been a fair man, open and honest and I respect that. You're a good guy in my book. I received a 7th from Sijo Gascon and I didn't pay a red cent for it. I also received a 7th at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko, didn't pay a cent for that either. How many out there can say the same? How many??? Plus I'm proudly to say that neither of these men (or Nick Cerio) have a video series out for mail order promotions to black belt!

 

[Colin_Linz]

I’m just curious guys. Why do you use the n instead of m. I don’t mean start anything, and what ever reason it is used is fine. It is just something I don’t understand. I have heard a couple of reasons, one was it was a printing mistake in a book that someone wrote and it just sort of stuck, and the other is to create your own identity. These answers were never put to this direct question, just by products of other discussions, so I though I would ask directly.

 

[Karazenpo]

I’m just curious guys. Why do you use the n instead of m. I don’t mean start anything, and what ever reason it is used is fine. It is just something I don’t understand. I have heard a couple of reasons, one was it was a printing mistake in a book that someone wrote and it just sort of stuck, and the other is to create your own identity. These answers were never put to this direct question, just by products of other discussions, so I though I would ask directly.

Actually Colin, you're right in your assessment. From what I understand Mitose originally used kempo but it was a publishing error in his book "What is Self Defense Kenpo Jiu Jitsu that led to the "n' and from there you hear all kind of stories, identity issues and so forth. Whether spelled m or n it is phonetically pronounced m. Sigung John Bishop told me his mother is Japanese and in Japan anything spelled with an n is considered a sword art, an m is considered law of the fist. I do have something from one of our members, Tony, from Japan that sums it up nicely. He is very well versed on these issues. Let me check my documents and I will post it.

 

[Karazenpo]

There you go Colin:

The poster is Kimpatsu, he's of Shorinji Kempo and lives in Japan:


There's no real semantic difference; the glottal stop "n" can also be pronounced as the plosive "m" in the middle of Japanese words. What then happens is that certain words adopt the "m" as convention; "shimbun" ("newspaper") is one such example.
Shorinji Kempo uses the "m" by convention, so we all use it for conformity. Other forms of kenpo choose to use the "n".
But there's no real mystery about it. Tony Kehoe-MartialTalk Forum
HTH.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I know Tony well, but have not met him. Hopefully I’ll catch up to him in Japan later this year. You can trust whatever he says about Japanese language and grammar, he is a highly skilled translator.

Yes I knew the difference, but had just wondered why you guys kept the n. As I said, I’d heard of a couple of reasons, but I hadn’t seen it addressed specifically. Thanks for the reply.

 

[The Kai]

Probably the seperate idenity issue. kenpo was used for years when the discrepency was discovered it was the norm? BTW how do you type an entire book with out the letter "m"?

todd

 

[The Kai]

Hey guys, as you can tell from my time on MT I 'try' not to pass judgement on others unless I'm pushed into a corner but if I am, I will respond accordingly. To each their own, as long as people mind their own business and don't hurt anyone in the propagation of the arts. Wasn't it Christ that said; "He who has not sinned shall throw the first stone." Believing in that, I have discovered many hypocrits in life and I'm sure you guys have discovered the same. Yes, Ralph Castro always used the 'n', Shaolin Kenpo and Shihan Christopher Geary teaches Mattera's Shaolin Kempo with, I'm sure, some additions and modifications. He met Professor Cerio at a seminar and/or tournament, I can't recall, put on by the USSD. As stated so many times before and its really getting old by now, but Cerio was contacted by someone and after the conversation he immediately cut all ties with the USSD. I conversed with Lou Angel at one time and he totally stands by his promotion of Geary. However, it is not my place to comment on this so please just contact Lou Angel and trust me, he will respond to you forthwith. He is not a guy to play games with. As far as Sonny Gascon goes, he never takes a cent from anyone and pays his own expenses from what I've seen and understood, including his trip this month to Cerio's legacy memorial! How many SGM's with his reputation that you know would do that? Again, I don't speak for Sijo Gascon, so as I stated with Lou Angel, take it up with 'Sonny' personally. Thunderbolt, this is not directed to you, I'm just making a blanket statement to everyone. You've always been a fair man, open and honest and I respect that. You're a good guy in my book. I received a 7th from Sijo Gascon and I didn't pay a red cent for it. I also received a 7th at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko, didn't pay a cent for that either. How many out there can say the same? How many??? Plus I'm proudly to say that neither of these men (or Nick Cerio) have a video series out for mail order promotions to black belt!

Prof Joe
I know that you are very protective and proud of your lineage.
But there are a few questions,A ussd guy comes back gets rank recognition from GM Cerio (probably not a lot of personal contact, due to the travel between neb and RI, also no pics and this guy does'nt mind his pic taken)

10 YEARS later 5th degree black belt in Goju Ryu? Where did this come from? secret Goju Ryu training? There is a not alot of commonalities betwwen the two arts so a cross ranking would be a strech. Heres a clue
The NCMA gives you the rank advancement opportunities you need without the usual strings.
From The NCMA website
2 Years after that a 6th degree from Sij gascone in karazempo!
That's a lot of cross training going on, in addition to the interior decorating, the sewing on of the royal headrest etc...

I realize you need to market yourself, and this guy might be all that (actually not from looking at the technique page IMHO)

The one odd thing is Sijo Gascone, from all I've heard a Hard, proud ,man. But maybe he got taken in by a line....Unfortanatly he rides the Late Mr Cerio's and Sijo Gascones name, good intentions sometimes are a motherf....

Todd

 

[DavidCC]

Althoguth John James likes to deny it, this doc following proves that Cerio did indeed promote Chris Geary to black belt. Not a NCMIAA acknowledgent of rank, but a promotion to rank (see the last paragrpah of the story at the top of the page):

Where did this come from? secret Goju Ryu training? There is a not alot of commonalities betwwen the two arts so a cross ranking would be a strech.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I mean, unless you have been monitoring Lou Angel's activity over the last 10 years and have a valid list of who he has been training? LOL :toilclaw: let me explain ho wwrong you are...

Geary has developed his own style based on his initial training at USSD, his (albeit limited) training with Nick Cerio, and his extensive training with Lou Angel. CNG's Kempo integrates a lot of Goju with the SK system. At the ranks from 1st-5th Dan, the requirements for advancement in CNG Shaolin Kempo ARE the katas of Tenshi Goju Kai. So as a person learns those katas Hanshi Angel acknowleges that with the opportunity to test for rank in his style. So the requirments for BB ranks in CNG's overlap the reqs for Tenshi Goju and so cross ranking is not so far-fetched as it might seem.

Similar story with Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. The KGS BBS board looked at the style and thought it was similar enough in practice and principle that they would be comfortable evaluating the black belts in CNG's Kempo concurrently in KGS for rank, and they found Geary deserved a 6th dan.

I think we did pay the airfare for Sijo Gascon to come from Hawaii to Omaha, but I'm not entirely sure.

It is interesting that you ("The Kai") would easier smear Sijo Gason's reputation that admit the possibility the Geary might have earned these ranks.

 

[James Kovacich]

Thats "pretty typical" to only quote the part you don't like.

The whole quote goes like this
"Thank you for your interest in the National College of Martial Arts (NCMA), a world wide organization of martial arts schools. We're here to help you!

The NCMA gives you the rank advancement opportunities you need without the usual strings.

Regardless of the style or method you prefer, NCMA welcomes you as a member and provides a path of advancement for instructors and individuals.

The goal of the NCMA is to see that all members receive the recognition they deserve without the politics which often plague the Martial Arts world today.

Hanshi Lou Angel, a 10th Dan and Hanshi of the Tenshi Goju Kai started the N.C.M.A. in 1989 to provide a non-political environment for the advancement of the art of Karate.

To learn more about how the NCMA can benefit your organization, use the menu below to browse the programs offered by the NCMA."

Before this becomes an NCMA slam. I want to say the NCMA is 100% non-political and is a home for those that are no longer affilitated to a parent organization.

Hanshi welcomes and guides many martial artist from all styles including Kenpo, for the better of martial arts.

If anyone has seen his video program, they would know that rank in Goju is not attainable without the abilities to back it up. And it would be naive to think Lou Angel has no ties to many of "Americas Martial Art Seniors."

There is much I don't like about the arts. Some of it has to do with some in here. But I'm not going to "talk the talk" I don't need to. Long ago Greg Lagera taught me and all of his students how to bang and thats all the matters.

People like me look up to Lou Angel for guidance in our journeys. People like Lou Angel have "forgotten" more martial knowledge than most of us will ever attain.

Like I was saying, if anyone knows anything about his video program. THEY WOULD KNOW that one of the first things he says is "with his experience he can tell is someone is performing at a black belt level. And on his video one only gets the techniques performed in basic fashion. It's impossible to gain high rank in Tenshi Goju without solid training. The tape is a guide. Watch his tournament and you will see low ranking black belts performing Kata in "True Goju Spirit."

He will recognize your current verifiable rank. Additional advancement comes theough the form of a test. I may be slightly wrong but I beleive Sijo Gascon and Professor Abregana have the same policy.

Pro. Joe I am sorry for your bad experience with Hanshi but when you have 50 years in the martial arts you'll be entitled to "your own ways too." :asian:

 

[The Kai]

Althoguth John James likes to deny it, this doc following proves that Cerio did indeed promote Chris Geary to black belt. Not a NCMIAA acknowledgent of rank, but a promotion to rank (see the last paragrpah of the story at the top of the page):

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I mean, unless you have been monitoring Lou Angel's activity over the last 10 years and have a valid list of who he has been training? LOL :toilclaw: let me explain ho wwrong you are...

I did leave open the possibilty that it is all that

Geary has developed his own style based on his initial training at USSD, his (albeit limited) training with Nick Cerio, and his extensive training with Lou Angel. CNG's Kempo integrates a lot of Goju with the SK system. At the ranks from 1st-5th Dan, the requirements for advancement in CNG Shaolin Kempo ARE the katas of Tenshi Goju Kai. So as a person learns those katas Hanshi Angel acknowleges that with the opportunity to test for rank in his style. So the requirments for BB ranks in CNG's overlap the reqs for Tenshi Goju and so cross ranking is not so far-fetched as it might seem.

So he was bringing hanshi angel in from Mo, how often? So your katas overlap?/ Or do the Gojo Kata start after 1 black belt. Then the Karazempo katas come in where, How often was Sijo in Nebraska? While many people will recognize a rank in black belt 1st thru 5th should take 15 years!



Similar story with Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. The KGS BBS board looked at the style and thought it was similar enough in practice and principle that they would be comfortable evaluating the black belts in CNG's Kempo concurrently in KGS for rank, and they found Geary deserved a 6th dan.

So the system that emplys Goju forms(for 1st thru 5th black) was close enough to Karazempo? to jump up a few degrees?

I think we did pay the airfare for Sijo Gascon to come from Hawaii to Omaha, but I'm not entirely sure.

It is interesting that you ("The Kai") would easier smear Sijo Gason's reputation that admit the possibility the Geary might have earned these ranks.

My name is Todd The kai is just a"handle"
I am not trying to smear Sijo, as Sijo has proven himself. But take it as you want to>>I am sorry if I hurt your feelings

Todd

 

[The Kai]

There is more text up in the quotation box, just so noone thinks I've gotten tactfull

Todd

 

[The Kai]

AKJA

I'm sorry that I did'nt quote the whole thing, I thought that the whole was pretty much of a piece. Yes you should be able to tell if someone is preforming at a Black Belt level, but to jump up to 5th in a short time//


Todd

 

[James Kovacich]

AKJA

I'm sorry that I did'nt quote the whole thing, I thought that the whole was pretty much of a piece. Yes you should be able to tell if someone is preforming at a Black Belt level, but to jump up to 5th in a short time//


Todd

I don't know all the goings on in Kempo but I do know that several of "our seniors" are reaching out to us. Hanshi Angel is one of them and he is a genuinely great guy. He co-signed my 5th dan. People do "the talk" but what they don't see is that the ones these people help are worthy. Just not by everyones standards but by the standards that due matter.

Something that a lot of people don't know is that Hanshi even though he is a traditionalist, is big on helping the evolution of new systems. His former student and best friend is the founder of Bushido Kempo, a Jun Fan art. Bushido Kempo is the first generation of my line.

Most don't see a connection with Hanshi and me. But to us it's obvious. He knows my line and I am under him now. If and when I get promoted it will be by Hanshi and even thats even knowing that my Kaju instructor asked me to align myself with him.

If anyone spoke up about your Sensei or Sifu, you'll step up, no doubt.

Also I was one who jumped to 5th in "my own system," I think you are on a similar path. But I have a many years behind be and my fellow students are higher up. And I have a good solid system. I was trained by a Gung Fu fighter who can hardly be touched and I hope that I'm a reflection of him.

 

[John Bishop]

I guess it's all a matter of standards. Several years ago I had a gentleman approach me to write a magazine article about him. He gave me a stack (47) certificates of rank, several being for ranks from 8th degree to 10th degree.

The most notable were a: 10th degre from Peter Urban's USA Goju
10th Degree from Lou Angel, NCMA
9th Degree from Ed Parker, IKKA

I personally contacted all three of these men to verify the ranks.
Mr. Parker said the person was a "member" of the IKKA, but was never promoted by him to any rank.
He simple used the IKKA certificate #26352, that had Mr. Parker's name pre-printed on it as "President", and made it out for a 9th degree, and had someone else sign as "instructor".
The certificate already had the names of the "President", Ed Parker, "Executive Vice President" Richard Planas, "Vice President" Larry Tatum, and "Secretary and Tresurer" Leilani Parker pre-printed on it

Mr. Urban just flat out called the man a "fraud and lier".

Mr. Angel said that the four certificates that he had issued to the individual were legitimate.
These were:
1. "National College of Martial Arts" California State Director
2. " " " " Certificate of rank- 10th dan Goju-USA
3. " " " " Instructor- 10th dan Goju Jinsei-do
4. " " " " Certificate of Membership#5001, 10th dan

Call me skeptical, but the man was only 32 years old by the time he accumulated the 47 black belt certificates. And his other claims of military and police experience were also fraudulent.

 

[James Kovacich]

I guess it's all a matter of standards. Several years ago I had a gentleman approach me to write a magazine article about him. He gave me a stack (47) certificates of rank, several being for ranks from 8th degree to 10th degree.

The most notable were a: 10th degre from Peter Urban's USA Goju
10th Degree from Lou Angel, NCMA
9th Degree from Ed Parker, IKKA

I personally contacted all three of these men to verify the ranks.
Mr. Parker said the person was a "member" of the IKKA, but was never promoted by him to any rank.
He simple used the IKKA certificate #26352, that had Mr. Parker's name pre-printed on it as "President", and made it out for a 9th degree, and had someone else sign as "instructor".
The certificate already had the names of the "President", Ed Parker, "Executive Vice President" Richard Planas, "Vice President" Larry Tatum, and "Secretary and Tresurer" Leilani Parker pre-printed on it

Mr. Urban just flat out called the man a "fraud and lier".

Mr. Angel said that the four certificates that he had issued to the individual were legitimate.
These were:
1. "National College of Martial Arts" California State Director
2. " " " " Certificate of rank- 10th dan Goju-USA
3. " " " " Instructor- 10th dan Goju Jinsei-do
4. " " " " Certificate of Membership#5001, 10th dan

Call me skeptical, but the man was only 32 years old by the time he accumulated the 47 black belt certificates. And his other claims of military and police experience were also fraudulent.

I think I know him and he would be an 8th under Lou Angel in his "own Goju system," Jissen-Kai Goju-Ryu. He definately is not ranked 10th by The late Peter Urban or Hanshi Angel.
The other ranks I know of a few but none for Kenpo and not 47. Is he in the miliary at moffet field? If we are are talking about the same individual, his most current rank, 8th, can be verified on the NCMA site within the newsletters which show all promotions.

Also Hanshi does not issue Goju-USA certs. Thats not his org.

 

[DavidCC]

The goju kata start after 1st black. There are other kata too at that level, - Statue of the Crane etc - that I think coem form the KGS line. The KGS pinan and kata are learned from white to black.

How much time did he spend with Hanshi Angel? I don't know. Myself, I have trained wth Hanshi Angel 3 times in the last 2 years. I know Shihan Geary has been to Joplin more times than that, and Angel may have been here more times than the 3 times I saw him.

The KGS promotion was a recognition that our style was part of their style family, and that our skills are their skills; and so ranking was appropriate. Sijo Gascon came here personally as a gesture to say "I really mean it, this guy deserves this rank".