How long do students stay on average?

[Fenta]

Hi everyone,

I know this will vary, but wanted to get some feedback on how long an average paying student stays? From reading around I think the answer appears to be a few months for most, and a few years for a much smaller percentage. For the few months group are we talking 2-3 months or 6-9 range average?

 

[WaterGal]

That depends on the school. We start students off with a short-term trial membership, so most of the reallllllly flaky people drop out after that and don't even sign up to become regular students. For regular students, we usually keep people at least 6-9 months.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi everyone,

I know this will vary, but wanted to get some feedback on how long an average paying student stays? From reading around I think the answer appears to be a few months for most, and a few years for a much smaller percentage. For the few months group are we talking 2-3 months or 6-9 range average?

Looking back at my experience, the average is about 3 months. I just did some quick estimations: out of 1,000 students, the vast majority last 3 months or less. A significant minority will last a year. A few will last 3 years. Maybe 2-3 will last 10 years.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not sure of a statistical answer (My guess would be somewhere between 60-75% quit in the first 3 months), but @Bill Mattocks made a good post on students quitting a while back, that gives good insight.

New Student: when will you quit?

 

[hoshin1600]

the drop off rate is effected by contracts. so if there is a one year contract more students will stay that one year as apposed to the natural rate based on their enthusiasm for training.
business wise the biggest drop off is at the "phone call" stage. they call and inquire but never show up.
the next drop off would be if there is an introductory special.
after that i would say 3 months then 6 months.
even without the contract the one year mark is a big drop off. those that make it past a year tend to stay until black belt. assuming an average 4 to 5 year term to attain it.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MatialTalk, Fenta.

A lot leave after a month. Then there's the three to six months folks. Then a couple years.

And I assume the average would be skewed by those that never leave.

 

[CB Jones]

It’s been interesting over the last 9 years watching students at my son’s dojo come and go, some return and then go again, others return and stay.

This year at the Winter Black Belt test and seminar the organization/lineage my son trains under (founded in 1948) promoted its 250th black belt.

I thought that was pretty interesting

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It’s been interesting over the last 9 years watching students at my son’s dojo come and go, some return and then go again, others return and stay.

This year at the Winter Black Belt test and seminar the organization/lineage my son trains under (founded in 1948) promoted its 250th black belt.

That's a milestone. Makes me curious how many have been promoted over the years (since 1962, I think) in the NGAA.

 

[Dirty Dog]

People tend to fall into (and leave) in clusters.
In our system, we see a ton of people start and leave within the first couple months. Most of these never get beyond white belt. Most of these people are leaving because they've tried it and it's just not for them.
The next group will quit in the mid-level colored ranks. These tend to be either people from the first group who were slower to decide that it's not for them, or those who've decided it's just too difficult. And some are leaving because they have figured out that we meant it when we said up front that their 9 year old would not be getting a black belt any time soon.
The next group quits after they get their 1st Dan. In our system, this means an adult has, on average, 6-8 years training with us. People who leave at this point tend to be either filling out their bucket lists or (more commonly) moving on - many of ours who have left at this stage have left because they're going away to college or grad school, or are moving because of a career opportunity. We're soon to lose a 1st and 2nd Dan to this. They're a couple and have both just graduated from college. She's been accepted at 3 of the 4 veterinary schools she applied to, and once she makes a decision they will be moving. I think about a third of them haven't really left; they've just left OUR school and are training with someone else in their new locale.
The next group (I seem to be in this group...) leaves when they're dead.

 

[WaterGal]

I just went and looked at a one-year retention report for January & February 2017. In January, we had 21 paid trials (our best month ever!). 16 signed up for a regular membership. 100% of those 16 are still members. February 2017, we had 8 paid trials, 7 of which signed up for a membership. 3 quit at 6-9 months, and 4 (57%) are still students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I just went and looked at a one-year retention report for January & February 2017. In January, we had 21 paid trials (our best month ever!). 16 signed up for a regular membership. 100% of those 16 are still members. February 2017, we had 8 paid trials, 7 of which signed up for a membership. 3 quit at 6-9 months, and 4 (57%) are still students.

Those are very good numbers!

 

[JR 137]

I just went and looked at a one-year retention report for January & February 2017. In January, we had 21 paid trials (our best month ever!). 16 signed up for a regular membership. 100% of those 16 are still members. February 2017, we had 8 paid trials, 7 of which signed up for a membership. 3 quit at 6-9 months, and 4 (57%) are still students.

Are those adults, children, or both? It would be interesting to see the trends in adults vs children.

At the dojo I train at, it seems kids stick around longer at first, but there’s far more adults who’ve been around longer overall. For instance (numbers made up), let’s say 80% of kids stay for 2 years and 40% of adults stay for 2 years. But of that 80% and 40%, 20% of those kids stay for 5+ years whereas 75% of those adults stay for 5+ years. If that makes sense.

 

[WaterGal]

Are those adults, children, or both? It would be interesting to see the trends in adults vs children.

At the dojo I train at, it seems kids stick around longer at first, but there’s far more adults who’ve been around longer overall. For instance (numbers made up), let’s say 80% of kids stay for 2 years and 40% of adults stay for 2 years. But of that 80% and 40%, 20% of those kids stay for 5+ years whereas 75% of those adults stay for 5+ years. If that makes sense.

Let's see...

For January:
Signed Up & still students:
9 - kids
5 - adults doing family classes with their kids
2 - adults doing adult classes

Quit after trial:
3 - kids
2 - adults doing adult classes

For February:
Signed Up & still students:
1 - kid
3 - adults doing adult classes (2 of which are parents of the kid)

Signed up & quit after 6-9 months:
3 - kids

Quit after trial:
1 - kid

I think you're right, though - adults tend to either realize quickly they're too busy/disorganized/lazy/whatever to do it, or they're really dedicated & passionate and stay forever, while kids often do it as an activity for 6 months or a year or two and then move on to another activity. Also, kids who stick with it for long enough eventually become adults who've done it forever.

 

[skribs]

I wanna say about a quarter of the new students we get don't come back after the first class, and maybe half quit after their two week trial is over.

After that, it's a slow attrition. I'd say maybe 20% or so drop out before yellow belt, 20% of those that make it to yellow drop out before purple, and so on. Because higher belts typically take longer, the classes kind of catch up with that attrition.

At black belt there's a significant drop, and probably 30% will not do a single class after getting their black belt, and another large group will go for a month or less after getting their black belt. It's kind the "okay, I spent 4 years doing this and I'm done" attitude. Those that stick around after black belt, again there's a slow attrition.

The longer a student stays, when they leave it's usually for one of three reasons:

• Started doing another activity, i.e. school sports
• Parents are moving
• Financial reasons

Most who have stuck it out for a year or so will keep going to black belt unless something else comes along.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At black belt there's a significant drop, and probably 30% will not do a single class after getting their black belt, and another large group will go for a month or less after getting their black belt. It's kind the "okay, I spent 4 years doing this and I'm done" attitude. Those that stick around after black belt, again there's a slow attrition.

This is different from my experience. I'm curious about it. I can't recall seeing a new BB quit in less than a year (though surely some have), so the 30% not showing up for a single class after promotion seems especially high, and I'm only a little less surprised by those quitting in that first month afterward. I can think of a few reasons people might leave immediately after BB:

• They burned too much time getting ready for that last bit of testing, and life is calling for them to pay off that time debt.
• They really wanted to quit about 6 months ago, but decided to stay and get their BB.
• They don't like some requirement beyond BB (something BB are required/expected to do, pay, or participate in).
• They just don't see anything beyond that - it feels like an end point.

I don't know that those are the only reasons. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen numbers similar to this.

 

[skribs]

This is different from my experience. I'm curious about it. I can't recall seeing a new BB quit in less than a year (though surely some have), so the 30% not showing up for a single class after promotion seems especially high, and I'm only a little less surprised by those quitting in that first month afterward. I can think of a few reasons people might leave immediately after BB:

• They burned too much time getting ready for that last bit of testing, and life is calling for them to pay off that time debt.
• They really wanted to quit about 6 months ago, but decided to stay and get their BB.
• They don't like some requirement beyond BB (something BB are required/expected to do, pay, or participate in).
• They just don't see anything beyond that - it feels like an end point.

I don't know that those are the only reasons. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen numbers similar to this.

Part of it I think is that in Kukkiwon, a black belt is a black belt, but a colored belt can be anything. So there's kind of that drive to get your black belt, so if you want to pick TKD up again, you can start there instead of starting over.

For example, let's say I've been training 4 years and I expect to get my black belt in a year. I also want to start doing football at school. I may do both for a year and burn myself out, but that way I have my black belt. Then, after I'm done with high school and college if I want to go back to Taekwondo, I have a black belt certificate that any KKW school has to honor. If I quit as a red belt, then in 6 years when I go back, I may have to start over as a white belt, or go down to green belt because of the school's curriculum, or something to that effect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Part of it I think is that in Kukkiwon, a black belt is a black belt, but a colored belt can be anything. So there's kind of that drive to get your black belt, so if you want to pick TKD up again, you can start there instead of starting over.

For example, let's say I've been training 4 years and I expect to get my black belt in a year. I also want to start doing football at school. I may do both for a year and burn myself out, but that way I have my black belt. Then, after I'm done with high school and college if I want to go back to Taekwondo, I have a black belt certificate that any KKW school has to honor. If I quit as a red belt, then in 6 years when I go back, I may have to start over as a white belt, or go down to green belt because of the school's curriculum, or something to that effect.

Ah, that makes sense. I could see that leading to "gotta make it just X more months", like someone who needs to reach a certain number of years of service in order to retire with benefits.

In the NGAA, there was no guarantee of picking up (rank-wise) where you left off. If you got your BB, then left for more than 18 months, you could be asked to re-test for that BB. If you couldn't pass it, you could be placed at whatever rank you could pass the test for. When that happened (I only know of a few times - usually the student didn't even test, because they knew they weren't ready for it), the instructor would usually place them one rank lower while they got caught up and back in form.

 

[skribs]

I think in Kukkiwon the reason is to standardize the Dan ranks, so if I go to a new school the Master at that school can't say "oh, you didn't ever test here, so here's your white belt" to someone who has been studying martial arts for 20 years and was a 4th Dan at their old school.

Not that there's a problem starting over, but that's if the person wants to or needs to. I was a green belt as a kid, and started over as a white belt at my current school. We've had several people who were red belts 10-15 years ago come in as white belts. But that was always our choice.

 

[JR 137]

Part of it I think is that in Kukkiwon, a black belt is a black belt, but a colored belt can be anything. So there's kind of that drive to get your black belt, so if you want to pick TKD up again, you can start there instead of starting over.

For example, let's say I've been training 4 years and I expect to get my black belt in a year. I also want to start doing football at school. I may do both for a year and burn myself out, but that way I have my black belt. Then, after I'm done with high school and college if I want to go back to Taekwondo, I have a black belt certificate that any KKW school has to honor. If I quit as a red belt, then in 6 years when I go back, I may have to start over as a white belt, or go down to green belt because of the school's curriculum, or something to that effect.

There’s that aspect. There’s also the aspect of a person is getting bored with it, and they start feeling like they should kind of finish what they started, as in get the black belt they initially wanted. If someone’s got three years in and is contemplating quitting, it’s a bit easier to justify sticking around for another year or so to reach the goal they set out for. Kind of along the line of “I’ve come this far, it would be a shame to not get my black belt out of it.”

Others simply have the goal of earning a black belt like it’s a terminal degree. My CI has told me about a few students who left within 6 months of earning 1st dan. They simply said “I achieved my goal.”

I could never figure out why someone would willingly leave right after 1st dan. That’s when I thought the material and structure of class became the most interesting and fun.

 

[JR 137]

People leave the MA for a variety of reasons. It’s not always because they’re bored, it’s not what they thought it would be, they don’t like the school, etc.

A lot of it depends on where they are in life. I left my initial dojo a few months shy of testing for 2nd dan. I was offered a graduate assistantship 5 hours away. Between work and grad school, I didn’t have the time, and my schedule (work all day, classes from 4:30-9) didn’t do very well with local dojo schedules.

A bunch of guys I trained with back then left within a year or so of me for similar reasons - going away to college, enlisting in the military, 2 went to the police academy, etc.

Then after that stage of life you have people starting a career, getting married, having kids, etc. Those things put a realistic time constraint on people. It’s all about priorities.

Kids get bored or have too many hobbies going on. Young adults go out into the real world and start their own lives. The more responsibilities you have, the more you need to prioritize what’s truly important. During my undergrad days, I could spend 4 nights a week in the dojo, attending multiple classes every time. As a 41 year old husband, father of a 5 and 7 year old, and a full time job, I’m lucky to get in twice a week. When my kids can take better care of themselves and have their own cars where they can get around, I’ll have more free time to be able to get in more often. I’d love to get into the dojo another night a week. Right now, that’s just not realistic.