How important is torque when punching.... why, when, how?

[Goldendragon7]

just curious...

 

[RCastillo]

Everything comes form the hips for power. W/O that, you only using the limbs, and not enough power there. There is certainly another dimension, I think, when it comes to your position in terms of what you follow up with as well.:asian:

I'm sure the Dragon will keep me after school for additional tutoring.....................

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is one of those cases where the distal guides the proximal. That is, your hand positioning before and after the strike is crucial to proper methods of execution.:asian:
Sean

 

[Ceicei]

Torque increases power; rotation of the hips and of the wrist when punching contributes to that power. Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends.

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ceicei

Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends. - Ceicei

Really? Are you sure?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
This is one of those cases where the distal guides the proximal. That is, your hand positioning before and after the strike is crucial to proper methods of execution.:asian: Sean

How so?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Everything comes form the hips for power.

Everything?

Originally posted by RCastillo
W/O that, you only using the limbs, and not enough power there.

Enough power for what? Doesn't it depend on what you need?, ... and sometimes depending on and individuals build he may "HAVE" enough power for what he needs for a particular use .......

Originally posted by RCastillo
There is certainly another dimension, I think, when it comes to your position in terms of what you follow up with as well.:asian:

please explain in more detail ....


I'm sure the Dragon will keep me after school for additional tutoring ...............

[/B][/QUOTE]

Not really, I still want you to have play time with your friends.

 

[ob2c]

'Torque- how important, why, when?'

Torque would be important in a major, or power strike. It's usually important to bring the trailing hand into play as well. But for snaping, lead hand jabs it might not be a factor. Also, not for lead hand punches with a foot maneuver/ backup mass. Another time it would not be important might be with finger strikes or other strikes to sensitive targets- say a back hammerfist to the groin.

Was that the kind of thing you had in mind?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
How so?

Well if you use a thrust off the hip as an example you will find that this motion works best if your palm is facing up; also, you will notice that if your hand is on the opposite shoulder the motion is most fluid when you palm is facing toward you. Once you have established the proper hand position for all return motion, torque is ensured with a proper method of execution. A noticable change in hand position should occur at the apex of all your strikes. Torque within a strike should occur as you pass from one muscle grouping to another.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Well if you use a thrust off the hip as an example you will find that this motion works best if your palm is facing up;
Sean

You mean it won't work well if the palm is facing down?

 

[pete]

the hips direct the shoulders, the knees with the elbows, and finally the ankle and wrist... all the while the tailbone sinks down and the cervical vertebrae pulls up. rotational force is the product of the whole body working in concert.

 

[Ceicei]

quote: Originally posted by Ceicei

Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends. - Ceicei

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Really? Are you sure?

Thinking.... I need redefine my previous answer....
%think%

Well, a punch is a strike, but not every strike is a punch. I suppose I should have asked you to clarify, what kind of punch do you mean with your original question?

Of course, whether a punch needs enough torque will depend on what stance. Some stances will not need a hip or wrist rotation when executing a punch. Do other principles come into play that may provide the necessary "power" to your punch, such as marriage of gravity, rebounding, etc.?

I guess what I am saying is, how can I answer your question without having more information of what you are asking and what answers you are fishing?

That said, there is some torque that happens with parts of the body, ranging from ankles, hips, back, shoulders, and wrists when doing certain kinds of punches. But as you implied with your response to me, not all punches will need that much torque, if any, from certain parts of the body.

The focus might be what makes some punches effective from certain stances?

- Ceicei

 

[WhiteTiger]

It seems we are talking about the "traditional" Reverse Punch. In this case the advantages of torquing the body are 3 fold.

Torque: a force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion : also a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation.
By this definition we are adding force to our punch by "torqing" our body.

Velocity: The rate of change of position along a straight line with respect to time : the derivative of position with respect to time. By moving our hip and shoulder in conjunction with our arm the velocity of the punch is increased by the additive effects of compound motion.

Rigidity: Stiff and unyielding. By moving into a forward bow stance when delivering this punch we limit the effects of the opponents body pushing back against our punch, there by maximizing the force transferance to the target.

While each of these effects is relatively simple the application is timing critical. At the instant of impact the torque, velocity, and rigidity must all be at their maximum effect.

As for me I begin to torque my hips when my punch is about half way to the target. (This also follows the "Weapon First" theory).

 

[WhiteTiger]

When teaching I tell my students to imagine that they have no arm, and they are actually striking with their hip. Then as a drill two of them stand close together with their hands behind them and practice torqing their hips into the other. Once they have learned to snap their hips around, we then start working on timing of the punch in conjunction with the torquing movement.

This of course is the most obvious example and there are more subtle torqing movements in a variety of striking techniques, but this is the one we first learn to apply this princeple.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There's a nice explanation (of course) of basic punches in Ed Parker and Tom Gow, "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate: Volume 1, The Basics," p. 15.

There, punches out of a horse stance are called, "corkscrew punches," and the rotation comes during the last portion of the punch's trajectory. Further noted is that a) when punching out of a horse stance and alternating hands, one of the problems is that the hand going out and the hand pulling in rotate differently, because, "the first will not rotate together because the returning arm will start to rotate immediately while the punching arm must wait until the eelbow has passed the side," and b) "when body motion accompanies a punch it is usually rotation of the waist."

I'd add two note: first, that in this book punches come AFTER stances and blocks and are discussed for the least space; second, that I'd argue for punches actually starting with the feet--for example, when punching out of a horse stance, the heels should go out slightly as the punch arrives.

It occurs to me, additionally, that the end section of Long 1 is a nice place to work on torque and punches...

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ceicei

Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends.

And I said:
Really? Are you sure?

You then responded to me with....

Originally posted by Ceicei

You implied with your response to me, not all punches will need that much torque, if any, from certain parts of the body.

LOL, now how did you get that from the above? I never said anything about the "amount" of torque.

You stated that "rotation "HAS" to happen at the "START" and continue through until the punch ends". {that's more of what I was referring to}

Why can't the punch start and the rotation begin at about 1/2 or 3/4 of the way thru the action (yes speed is "adjusted" or "regulated" due to the length of time modified) instead of {as you stated} "HAS" to happen from the start of the punch?

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by ob2c

Torque would be important in a major, or power strike.

Why not in minor strikes like rakes? Why just "power strikes"? Wouldn't torque be beneficial in these areas also?

Originally posted by ob2c

It's usually important to bring the trailing hand into play as well.

hmmmmmm Please explain further, I'm not sure I understand.

Originally posted by ob2c

Other times it would not be important might be with: snapping, lead hand jabs or lead hand punches with a foot maneuver/ backup mass, finger strikes or other strikes to sensitive targets-say a back hammerfist to the groin.

Well, any strike could be useful torqued or not..... but it seems to me, that torque would enhance all strikes to some degree.... yes/no?

:asian:

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


Really? Are you sure?

LOL, now how did you get that from the above? I never said anything about the "amount" of torque.

Ok... I know you didn't mention anything about how much torque. Your response meant to me that I might... ahhh.... be "incorrect" with my reply to you.

You stated that "rotation "HAS" to happen at the "START" and continue through until the punch ends". {that's more of what I was referring to}

Why can't the punch start and the rotation begin at about 1/2 or 3/4 of the way thru the action (yes speed is "adjusted" or "regulated" due to the length of time modified) instead of {as you stated} "HAS" to happen from the start of the punch?

Are you focusing on torque of wrists while punching? Is that why you are asking whether its important?

Back to your inquiry of my choice of words, why "has to from the start"?

Torque starts... think about the physical mechanics. Even if, depending on type of punch, that the wrist doesn't need to rotate, another part of the body does. Let's say, an uppercut. This has minimal, almost zero, wrist rotation with that kind of punch. The rotation from the waist/hips and the shoulder provides much of that power.

Now, if you are referring to a reverse punch with a forward bow stance (or as my instructor likes to call it, a pivot punch), then where was the original position of that hand? Was it at the hips? Was it next to the face? Was it elsewhere as a check from a prior move? To move from point A to point B generally requires some rotation.

As to WHEN the rotation starts would depend on WHERE the hand was and what stance. I don't think we can have any hard and fast absolute that rotations/torque always start half-way or 3/4 of the way. People argue we need to have the body moved closer (rotating from the waist or via the hips) to line up with the opponent before releasing the punch. If you are counting the punch timeline from beginning with the hip and then once closer to the opponent, releasing the punch, then the answer is no. According to that timeline, the punch rotation doesn't start at the beginning until the fist starts to take action. If you are looking instead at the timeline of fist point A to fist point B, asking whether torque is important with that particular punch, then I will have to ask, what kind of punch? Perhaps the torque has to start at the beginning with that kind, perhaps it doesn't have to with another kind.

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
There, punches out of a horse stance are called, "corkscrew punches," and the rotation comes during the last portion of the punch's trajectory. Further noted is that a) when punching out of a horse stance and alternating hands, one of the problems is that the hand going out and the hand pulling in rotate differently, because, "the first will not rotate together because the returning arm will start to rotate immediately while the punching arm must wait until the elbow has passed the side," and b) "when "body motion" accompanies a punch it is usually rotation of the waist."

It occurs to me, additionally, that the end section of Long 1 is a nice place to work on torque and punches...

You make some good points with your observations! I agree.

Rotational force is a tool that can greatly enhance your blocking/striking effectiveness.... with Major or Minor movements. Utilizing this tool actually should be recognized throughout Short Form 1, as well as Long Form 1, the end is of course good but, I feel so is the beginning, and middle as well.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I'd add: that in this book punches come "AFTER" stances and blocks.

Yes, Mr. Parker prioritized his basics into two categories.... to "teach" and to "apply".

The teaching order is"
Stances
Blocks
Parries
Punches
Strikes
Finger Techniques
Kicks
Foot Maneuvers

The "application" order is the same except you place foot maneuvers 2nd behind stances in importance.

:asian:

 

[Ceicei]

Perhaps your definition of rotation/torque is different than how I consider rotation/torque?

- Ceicei