BuffaloFOI
White Belt
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Thank you for responding in advance!
How do teach students who have previous experience?
- Thread starter BuffaloFOI
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
The same way you teach students who don't.
As you teach them you figure out what they know, what they are good at, what they do correctly and what they do not do correctly. And generally it is the things that they do not do correctly, that they may have learned previously, that are the hardest to teach.
As you teach them you figure out what they know, what they are good at, what they do correctly and what they do not do correctly. And generally it is the things that they do not do correctly, that they may have learned previously, that are the hardest to teach.
My stock answer to this type of question always seems to be ... 'It depends'.
There are a number of variables in the OP question. What is 'previous experience'? I can imagine at least five scenarios.
1. The student is experienced in the style of the school.
2. The student has trained in the style of the school but not for long.
3 The student has trained in a similar style.
4. The student has trained in another style.
5. The student trained in another discipline.
As Xue has said above the teaching is the same as any other student with attention to the differences that might be evident from school to school or within styles.
Where it becomes interesting is when you have a student from another discipline. Like recently, I have a Wing Chun student in my Goju school. It is very interesting and he is doing really well. That is far harder than having a student from say BJJ or judo which do not have as much potential conflict. :asian:
There are a number of variables in the OP question. What is 'previous experience'? I can imagine at least five scenarios.
1. The student is experienced in the style of the school.
2. The student has trained in the style of the school but not for long.
3 The student has trained in a similar style.
4. The student has trained in another style.
5. The student trained in another discipline.
As Xue has said above the teaching is the same as any other student with attention to the differences that might be evident from school to school or within styles.
Where it becomes interesting is when you have a student from another discipline. Like recently, I have a Wing Chun student in my Goju school. It is very interesting and he is doing really well. That is far harder than having a student from say BJJ or judo which do not have as much potential conflict. :asian:
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Perhaps the OP can elaborate a bit on his question? Is there a specific problem you are encountering that you are wanting to remedy?
There's no real answer because, like others have said, it's too variable. The general idea is that I treat them like any new student: I try to get them up to speed to where they can train with the class as much as reasonable, rather than being in a corner working on the basics. If they're from a different club of my style, we'll see -- because everyone does things a little different. If they're from another style, you have to be patient about "unlearning" and shifting to our way of doing things.
As long as the student is receptive and open I would agree with this. Then again, IMHO the open and receptiveness of the student determines how you teach them regardless of previous experience. It is always "fun" to teach the student that already "knows" everything because they did it "this" way in at their old school.
What I like even more is when they say, "but what if I did this?"
I would say it's not really the teachers problem, but the students. I myself are at the other end of this. I've trained for many years in Kyokushin karate. Later I switched to Bujinkan Ninjutsu, which employs a rather different set of tactics and strategies.
However, it is mostly up to myself if I wanna be open minded and learn the new style, or if I wanna refuse and stau with my previous ways of doing things. In my case I am doing what the instructors tell me to do, but still I believe that my karate experience gives me an advantage in generating powerful kicks and punches. I just try to adapt my previous experience to my new style.
If someone just cannot see that things can be done effectively in different ways, then they will just not advance in rank in the new style. Which might be fine by them.
Anyway, like others have said, teach them the same way as any other student, if they don't want to respond to your instruction, its their problem.
However, it is mostly up to myself if I wanna be open minded and learn the new style, or if I wanna refuse and stau with my previous ways of doing things. In my case I am doing what the instructors tell me to do, but still I believe that my karate experience gives me an advantage in generating powerful kicks and punches. I just try to adapt my previous experience to my new style.
If someone just cannot see that things can be done effectively in different ways, then they will just not advance in rank in the new style. Which might be fine by them.
Anyway, like others have said, teach them the same way as any other student, if they don't want to respond to your instruction, its their problem.
GaryR
Green Belt
I like to identify the similarities and differences right up front. So the student knows what to toss and what to keep. Mechanics are the first thing covered, followed by--"if I hit you like this what is your favorite type of method." Then the pros and cons of the foregoing are discussed and demonstrated. With very experienced students (including other teachers), it usually behooves you to demonstrate the failure points of their systems and explain exactly why those are failure points. This leads to more trust in the new teacher/student relationship, so as the training progresses, there is not the "what if I do this", or "well I think X is better" mentality.
G
G
Personally I love teaching experienced practitioners. Lately more and more people have been coming to me with ten or more years of experience. I enjoy that they have skill sets in certain areas of the Martial Sciences and I can help them in other areas where they may have less experience. When someone has habits that may or may not be ideal I'm straight up front with them and try to help them in that area. Most of the time this is greatly appreciated and a very minor change is needed. If they come to me from an art that emphasizes movement then they typically fit right in! Bottom line I see someone with experience as good. IRT does not really force someone to discard previous training (maybe adapt) but instead compliments that training and makes them more well rounded!
Bottom line I see someone with experience as good. IRT does not really force someone to discard previous training (maybe adapt) but instead compliments that training and makes them more well rounded!sfs982000
Master Black Belt
I would say you teach the experienced student the same as you teach the non-experienced student. As an experienced student myself, when I switched schools I just had to remember to keep an open mind and realize that how I was used to doing things might not be the way that my new school does things.
harlan
2nd Black Belt
I don't. The more experience they have, the more inclined I am to decline to 'teach' them.
A BB in Uechi once approached me, and I told him straight up that he should train with more advanced teachers, and passed him along to my teachers. My explanation was that he was doing himself a dis-service at that point to not work with people more advanced (than himself). And frankly, I think working with people who need to UN-learn is a skills-set in its' own right.
A BB in Uechi once approached me, and I told him straight up that he should train with more advanced teachers, and passed him along to my teachers. My explanation was that he was doing himself a dis-service at that point to not work with people more advanced (than himself). And frankly, I think working with people who need to UN-learn is a skills-set in its' own right.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Not me. I positively hate that. Last time it happened, the guy ended up getting face-planted and pinched a nerve. I'm still not entirely sure what I did but he went flying, face-first.What I like even more is when they say, "but what if I did this?"
I was teaching a Bowie Knife seminar and the technique started from a bind. "But what happens if I do this instead." <sigh> He was working with one of my assistants so I stepped in and did the usual "well, let's find out." So I showed him what came next and was about to deliver my "chess match, counter for every counter" speech when he suddenly shifted again and said, "but what if I do this instead!" &%*&$#!!!
Yeah.
Ya wanna know what the answer is to "what happens if" when holding bowie knives? Someone gets hurt. That's ALWAYS the answer. It's frick'n WEAPONS! "What happens if I cut like this?" Either I parry and ripost and you get hurt or I miss and you hit me and I get hurt. "What happens if, instead, I <fill in the blank>?" Same answer. Either I have a response for it and you get hurt or I don't and I get hurt. That's the answer. Someone gets hurt. <sigh>
This is now one of my stock speeches. Can you tell? It dovetails right into the "You remember what the word 'martial' means in 'martial art', right?" speech.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
I hear that!Personally I love teaching experienced practitioners. Lately more and more people have been coming to me with ten or more years of experience. I enjoy that they have skill sets in certain areas of the Martial Sciences and I can help them in other areas where they may have less experience. When someone has habits that may or may not be ideal I'm straight up front with them and try to help them in that area. Most of the time this is greatly appreciated and a very minor change is needed. If they come to me from an art that emphasizes movement then they typically fit right in!
Generally, if someone has made it past green belt in whatever other MA they've done it means they've got the will to stick to it, the ability to listen and learn, and the desire to add to what they know.
I've got a stock speech for this too. It starts with, "I'm not asking you to give up what you already know, just add this too it." I'm not really a fan of the "empty your cup" speech. As far as I've been able to find, humans would rather die than empty their cups just as part of human psychology and, further, they don't really need to anyhow because the human mind is capable of learning a nearly infinite number of physical skills to varying degrees of expertise. The human mind, Zen-ish bumper stickers notwithstanding, isn't a cup it's a blasted billion-cubic-food reservoir and the only reason someone couldn't add more to their "cup" is if there was a lid on it.
But I'm slipping into Rant Mode.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Haha, right... if how they did it at the other school was so great, why did they leave?
Experienced students can be great, but I think often the biggest lesson for them to learn is humility. And that's understandable. If you're training in a new style, it can be a real head trip to have to be a beginner again and make a lot of mistakes when you've been doing martial arts for years. And if you go to a place that has higher standards, or more athletic students, or it's just been a long time and you're out of shape/practice, it can feel embarrassing to have X rank and be out-performed by lower ranks.
I always try to just accept students as they are, with whatever skills and talent they have, and just non-judgementally encourage them to improve from there.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
What I like even more is when they say, "but what if I did this?"
I hear that sometimes when teaching defences against holds, usually after 2 or 3 times it is said, I just say that there are many ways to get out of each hold but unfortunately I can't teach them all at once so why don't we concentrate on these first. It is an interesting challenge to try the variations you don't usually think of.
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If they're from the same system (Shotokan Karate in my school), then they should be able to jump right into things. There may be a few slight differences, but those are adjusted on the fly.
If they're from a closely related system, again, most of the time, things can be adjusted on the fly, but there may need to be some one-on-one sessions.
I've had experienced folks from other systems join the dojo, and almost every time, they prefer to learn as other beginners do.
I start them with the same material as I would with someone who has no experience. If they can demonstrate that they can perform the techniques the way we teach them, then I'll move ahead to the next lesson.
In the end, they'll still learn the exact same material as those who don't have any previous experience, except they'll progress more rapidly. These students can be of a great benefit to your school, since they can inspire others, and as the instructor, you can pick up on some things that they bring as well, enhancing your own methods. I find that as time progresses, those experienced students adapt quite nicely.
There will always be traits from their previous experience that stick out. That's perfectly fine, as long as they still use the proper fundamentals from our school while training with us. Everyone is going to be different, and there's no reason to quash such features as long as they're honestly trying to adapt.
If they're from a closely related system, again, most of the time, things can be adjusted on the fly, but there may need to be some one-on-one sessions.
I've had experienced folks from other systems join the dojo, and almost every time, they prefer to learn as other beginners do.
I start them with the same material as I would with someone who has no experience. If they can demonstrate that they can perform the techniques the way we teach them, then I'll move ahead to the next lesson.
In the end, they'll still learn the exact same material as those who don't have any previous experience, except they'll progress more rapidly. These students can be of a great benefit to your school, since they can inspire others, and as the instructor, you can pick up on some things that they bring as well, enhancing your own methods. I find that as time progresses, those experienced students adapt quite nicely.
There will always be traits from their previous experience that stick out. That's perfectly fine, as long as they still use the proper fundamentals from our school while training with us. Everyone is going to be different, and there's no reason to quash such features as long as they're honestly trying to adapt.
lklawson
Grandmaster
They moved.
The Dojo closed.
They got tight on money and couldn't afford it.
The Dojo changed its hours of operation to a time when they couldn't make it.
Their job changed shifts and they couldn't make classes.
They went to college in another State.
They were injured or got sick and quit martial arts in order to heal.
The Sensei retired and left it to a senior student that he hates or feels doesn't teach well.
The Dojo focused on children at the expense of adult instruction.
Someone told them your martial art was a good complement or "filled in the blanks" to their previous.
I've heard all of these from time to time.
Plenty more reasons other than the implication that the previous art sucks.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
As others have said: I see what they know and go from there.
I do however require them to keep up with their old forms if they have rank in the other system. If they ever revisit there old school I want them to be able to show the instructor that they valued their learning there by remembering what was taught there.
We also let them know that what we teach may be a little different and explain why we do what we do. Letting them know that no one way of doing things is absolutely correct but ask that they try to do things our way while at our school.
If however they come in with a know-it-all attitude then they are usually asked to find a different school to train at.
I do however require them to keep up with their old forms if they have rank in the other system. If they ever revisit there old school I want them to be able to show the instructor that they valued their learning there by remembering what was taught there.
We also let them know that what we teach may be a little different and explain why we do what we do. Letting them know that no one way of doing things is absolutely correct but ask that they try to do things our way while at our school.
If however they come in with a know-it-all attitude then they are usually asked to find a different school to train at.
Oh, I know. You're totally right, of course.
It's just kind of annoying when some kid/teenager keeps complaining "but at my old school we did it a different way", no matter why they left that place. They're not at that place anymore, so get with the program. (But it's even worse when they did leave the other school because it sucked!)
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