Here's what I'm talking about, supplement boys

[Bill Mattocks]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...ontain-toxin/?smid=tw-nytimeshealth&seid=auto

Shark cartilage, which has been hyped as a cancer preventive and joint-health supplement, may contain a neurotoxin that has been linked with Alzheimer’s and Lou Gehrig’s disease.
...
The findings are important because of the growing popularity of supplements that contain cartilage from shark fins. The products are widely sold and remain popular with consumers who view them as cancer fighters or as a remedy for joint and bone problems. The notion that shark cartilage can prevent cancer grew largely from the popularity of the 1992 book “Sharks Don’t Get Cancer.”

Although a number of studies have discredited shark cartilage as a cancer fighter, supplement makers have nonetheless made bold claims. In 2000, two supplement makers settled a federal suit as a result of hyping shark cartilage and paid restitution to customers.

People get all hyped up about things like this and they become popular. Once people decide that they have felt a positive affect from it - anything at all, from magnetic bracelets to this - you can't convince them it does not work and might even be dangerous. They'll point to ads and claim that if the ads were wrong, the government would stop them from making the claims. They'll mention so-and-so, a friend of a friend, who was miraculously cured of whatever ailment. They'll cling to shady studies done by organizations founded by or supported by the companies selling the supplements.

Hey, cram anything down your throats that you want; it's a free country. But I really think it's a waste of money, and might even harm you.

 

[Nomad]

Strongly agree, and would like to point out that the placebo effect has made an awful lot of people rich hawking such snake oil miracle cures.

This is why we have a gold standard of the double-blind clinical trial (where neither the patient nor the doctor are aware of who is receiving the medicine/supplement/etc and who is getting the placebo. If you can't show that something provides a statistically relevant therapeutic effect Above that exhibited by the placebo, then you're a snake-oil salesman and nothing more.

 

[K-man]

About 15 years ago there was a lot of hype about 'anti-oxidants'. These were meant to reduce the chance of you suffering a heart attack or stroke. These were marketed as ACE products. (Vit A, Vit C and Vit E plus a few other things.) It was one of the few supplements that I thought had a factual basis and actually took myself. A couple of years later and medical research showed that far from reducing the risk, it was actually the other way around. Taking the supplement actually increased the chances of heart attack and stroke.

Even in the last few weeks the 'Statins' used to reduce cholesterol and thought to be reasonably safe have been shown to increase the rate of diabetes and cause reversible memory loss. All this from a 'safe' drug.

Don't get me started on the pharmaceutical industry!

 

[Kinghercules]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...ontain-toxin/?smid=tw-nytimeshealth&seid=auto



People get all hyped up about things like this and they become popular. Once people decide that they have felt a positive affect from it - anything at all, from magnetic bracelets to this - you can't convince them it does not work and might even be dangerous. They'll point to ads and claim that if the ads were wrong, the government would stop them from making the claims. They'll mention so-and-so, a friend of a friend, who was miraculously cured of whatever ailment. They'll cling to shady studies done by organizations founded by or supported by the companies selling the supplements.

Hey, cram anything down your throats that you want; it's a free country. But I really think it's a waste of money, and might even harm you.

If you're for pharma and drugs then you wont believe that there are natural ways to kill cancer.
But if you're against pharma and drugs then you will believe in takin natural medicine.
Plane and simple.

 

[Kinghercules]

About 15 years ago there was a lot of hype about 'anti-oxidants'. These were meant to reduce the chance of you suffering a heart attack or stroke. These were marketed as ACE products. (Vit A, Vit C and Vit E plus a few other things.) It was one of the few supplements that I thought had a factual basis and actually took myself. A couple of years later and medical research showed that far from reducing the risk, it was actually the other way around. Taking the supplement actually increased the chances of heart attack and stroke.

Even in the last few weeks the 'Statins' used to reduce cholesterol and thought to be reasonably safe have been shown to increase the rate of diabetes and cause reversible memory loss. All this from a 'safe' drug.

Don't get me started on the pharmaceutical industry!

Takin what supplements (A, C & E)?
Who did the research?
Who paid for the research?
What were the guide lines behind the research?

These are the things you have to look at when it comes to these studies. Most of the negative views about vitamins are funded by pharma amd of they're not then they dont use a good amount of the supplement in the study. I recall talkin to someone about how supplements are not useful and they pointed out some study that showed Vit C didnt do anything to improve overall health. After readin the study I saw that the researchers only used 30mg of Vit C!! LOL!!
At that amount you aint gonna stop crap! So of course their results were negative about Vit C. I think it was last year that on the Today Show that they were sayin that Vit D doesnt do anything for over all health and that there were no studies to prove that it does. I was discussed by their lack of research on the behalf of the reporters. I just typed in Vit D and several studies came up sayin how it is helpful and beneficial if taken.

 

[Kinghercules]

I take supplements and I believe ppl should. How else are you gonna stop oxidative stress and free radical damage?

Here's just a few abstracts:

HUMAN RESEARCH
13. Am J Cardiol. 1995 Dec 15;76(17):1233-8.
Dietary intake, plasma levels of antioxidant vitamins, and oxidative stress in relation to coronary artery disease in elderly subjects.
Singh RB, Ghosh S, Niaz MA, Singh R, Beegum R, Chibo H, Shoumin Z, Postiglione A.
India.
A survey of 595 elderly subjects with coronary artery disease (CAD) indicated that the blood levels of antioxidants (vitamins E, C, A and beta-carotene) were low.

Ophthalmic Epidemiol. 2002 Feb;9(1):49-80.
The Roche European American Cataract Trial (REACT): a randomized clinical trial to investigate the efficacy of an oral antioxidant micronutrient mixture to slow progression of age-related cataract.
USA
An antioxidant combination of vitamins E and C and beta-carotene was administered to 445 cataract patients from the U.S. and the U.K. to determine whether the supplement would hinder the progression of cataracts. After 3 years, a small positive effect was evident in the U.S. group indicating that the antioxidant mixture could hinder growth of cataracts.

Am J Gastroenterol. 2001 Apr;96(4):1080-4.
Successful and sustained treatment of chronic radiation proctitis with antioxidant vitamins E and C.
Kennedy M, Bruninga K, Mutlu EA, Losurdo J, Choudhary S, Keshavarzian A.
USA.
In this pilot study, 20 patients who had received pelvic radiation and were diagnosed with radiation proctitis (rectal bleeding, pain, diarrhea, fecal urgency) were treated with antioxidants (vitamins E and C). The severity and frequency of the symptoms were documented before and after treatment. There was a significant improvement in the symptoms and these improvements were sustained at a one-year follow-up. The authors recommend that a double-blind placebo controlled study be conducted to verify results.

Clin Excell Nurse Pract. 1998 Jan;2(1):10-22.
A review of vitamins A, C, and E and their relationship to cardiovascular disease.
Brown DJ, Goodman J.
USA
The authors of this review of studies of vitamins E, C and A and cardiovascular disease (CVD) find significant evidence to support the supplementation of vitamins E, C and A to lower the risk of death from CVD. They also concluded that diabetics, smokers and those with hypertension would benefit from taking vitamin C.

J Am Coll Cardiol. 2000 Sep;36(3):758-65.
Effect of folic acid and antioxidant vitamins on endothelial dysfunction in patients with coronary artery disease.
Title LM, Cummings PM, Giddens K, Genest JJ Jr, Nassar BA.
Canada
High homocysteine levels in the blood can contribute to atherosclerosis by damaging blood vessels. In this double-blind placebo controlled study, folic acid, folic acid plus antioxidants (vitamins E and C) or placebo was administered to 75 patients with coronary artery disease (CAD). Folic acid increased plasma folate by 475%, improved flow-mediated dilation (FMD), and reduced homocysteine in the blood. Folic acid plus antioxidants had similar positive results.

Free Radic Biol Med. 2000 Jun 15;28(12):1806-14
The role of natural antioxidants in preserving the biological activity of endothelium-derived nitric oxide.
Carr A, Frei B.
USA
Most cases of coronary artery disease (CAD) are linked with oxidative stress. The presence of endothelium-derived nitric oxide (EDNO), a vaso relaxant can control the progress of atherosclerosis. Supplementation with antioxidants (vitamins E and C) can stabilize EDNO, a positive therapy in the prevention of CAD.

 

[Nomad]

If you're looking for evidence to support a theoretical use for a given supplement, it's not hard to find a study that will support it. Likewise for most supplements it's not difficult to find a study saying that there is no benefit. Much depends on the study details; how it was conducted, the size of the group studied, and so on.

This is why the gold standard is and remains the double-blind clinical trial... If you don't have this, then it's fairly easy for a study to tell you what you already want to know: that is, if you believe in the efficacy of a certain entity, it's very easy to end with biased results showing what you expected and vice-versa.

In terms of supplements, the best website I've come across is this one. It has a ton of information starting from the visual representation showing how how many studies have been conducted and the weight of information on the pro and con side of the argument. Delving into individual supplements links you directly to the various studies done so you can see for yourself. Their "worth-it" line is a pretty good indicator of the current literature for or against specific supplements with specific indications.

 

[K-man]

Takin what supplements (A, C & E)?
Who did the research?
Who paid for the research?
What were the guide lines behind the research?

These are the things you have to look at when it comes to these studies. Most of the negative views about vitamins are funded by pharma amd of they're not then they dont use a good amount of the supplement in the study. I recall talkin to someone about how supplements are not useful and they pointed out some study that showed Vit C didnt do anything to improve overall health. After readin the study I saw that the researchers only used 30mg of Vit C!! LOL!!
At that amount you aint gonna stop crap! So of course their results were negative about Vit C. I think it was last year that on the Today Show that they were sayin that Vit D doesn't do anything for over all health and that there were no studies to prove that it does. I was discussed by their lack of research on the behalf of the reporters. I just typed in Vit D and several studies came up sayin how it is helpful and beneficial if taken.

Unfortunately we are now experiencing a massive epidemic of vitamin D deficiency in Australia because of the successful campaign against Melanama advising people to stay out of strong sunlight. As a result a lot, more people should be taking Vit D supplement. However the real villain appears to be Vit E.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/732017

This meta analysis was conducted at Harvard University. Most articles quoted showing benefit will be prior to 2010.

As to Vit C. Linus Pauling got it wrong, intentionally or not I could not say. When I was involved in the Health Care Industry I looked for evidence to support the use of Vit C and in over 40 years saw no verifiable studies to back up the folk law promoted by the Vitamin industry, which is no different to the drug companies, but with less regulation.

http://infernalmedicine.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/vitamin-c-miracle-or-hoax/

If you have any double blind clinical trials to support the use of Vit C in normal or megadose, I would love to read it. It certainly hasn't been published in the medical or pharmaceutical journals in Australia.

Glucosamine is the other supplement that gets up my nose. The company involved in the original research employed a rheumatologist to conduct the studies, not double blind, and surprise, surprise, the results were amazing. I believed the trial was legitimate as it was conducted by an expert in the field and, along with many others, started recommending Glucosamine. Not one trial since then has been able to reproduce those first trial results. It was a classic placebo effect. Unfortunately, despite all evidence to the contrary, people are still wasting their hard earned to purchase a product that is no better than placebo.

For anyone taking statins,

http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/29/fda-warns-statin-users-of-memory-loss-and-diabetes-risks/

The quote that comes to mind is, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".

 

[K-man]

If you're looking for evidence to support a theoretical use for a given supplement, it's not hard to find a study that will support it. Likewise for most supplements it's not difficult to find a study saying that there is no benefit. Much depends on the study details; how it was conducted, the size of the group studied, and so on.

This is why the gold standard is and remains the double-blind clinical trial... If you don't have this, then it's fairly easy for a study to tell you what you already want to know: that is, if you believe in the efficacy of a certain entity, it's very easy to end with biased results showing what you expected and vice-versa.

In terms of supplements, the best website I've come across is this one. It has a ton of information starting from the visual representation showing how how many studies have been conducted and the weight of information on the pro and con side of the argument. Delving into individual supplements links you directly to the various studies done so you can see for yourself. Their "worth-it" line is a pretty good indicator of the current literature for or against specific supplements with specific indications.

Hear, hear! Well said.

And, the website you recommend supports what I have stated for all products. Thank you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The vast majority of supplements are nothing more than a recipe for expensive urine.

Ones such as the shark cartilage mentioned by the OP bother me more than others, since obtaining them requires killing some really amazing animals that are already harvested wayyyyyy too much. Sharks are badly over fished, and many are endangered. It saddens me to dive in a place like Playa del Carmen, where at one time during the mating season you could find hundreds of bull sharks, and see only 15-20.

One supplement that DOES work is raw garlic, to prevent colds and flu. It's simple. If you eat enough of it, nobody will get close enough to infect you...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

One supplement that DOES work is raw garlic, to prevent colds and flu. It's simple. If you eat enough of it, nobody will get close enough to infect you...

That would be the one thing I would never have a problem with. I grew up thinking that garlic came in little dry flakes in a bottle on the spice rack. I had never had 'raw' aka 'fresh' garlic in my life until I got out in the world on my own. I love it - it tastes AMAZING! However, I cannot digest it. If I eat food with fresh garlic on it in more than small amounts, I will spend the rest of the day in the bathroom being very wretched indeed; and making the place uninhabitable as a side-effect of the side-effect. Which is really a shame, garlic is terrific. But my body has no idea what to do with it except to get rid of it pronto.

 

[seasoned]

Although I am an advocate for supplements, I have cut back a bit. I do feel better with them whether placebo effect or actual effect. There is a lot of money to be made if it's pharmaceutical, or nutritional vitamins, and we as humans are pawns in this folly.

I don't feel you could live off of just popping pills, but, a clean diet, plenty of good water, and a few vitamins mixed in with that good diet will go a lot farther then that burger and fries, with the milk shake or soft drink, that is a main stay in the normal everyday diet. Just saying.....

 

[Kinghercules]

As to Vit C. Linus Pauling got it wrong, intentionally or not I could not say. When I was involved in the Health Care Industry I looked for evidence to support the use of Vit C and in over 40 years saw no verifiable studies to back up the folk law promoted by the Vitamin industry, which is no different to the drug companies, but with less regulation.

http://infernalmedicine.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/vitamin-c-miracle-or-hoax/

If you have any double blind clinical trials to support the use of Vit C in normal or megadose, I would love to read it. It certainly hasn't been published in the medical or pharmaceutical journals in Australia.

I find it hard to believe that you couldnt find any info on Vit C.

Am J Ther. 2002 Jul-Aug;9(4):289-93.
A randomized, double-blind, controlled trial of vitamin C in the management of
hypertension and lipids.
Hajjar IM, George V, Sasse EA, Kochar MS.
USA.
In this double blind control study, 31 patients were given either 500mg, 1000 mg or 2000 mg of vitamin C daily for 8 months. While taking supplements blood pressure decreased significantly despite the dose of vitamin C. Thus, a 500 mg daily dose of vitamin C is seen as being an effective treatment in mild hypertension
PMID: 12115017

Adv Ther. 2002 May-Jun;19(3):151-9.
Preventing the common cold with a vitamin C supplement: a double-blind,placebo-controlled survey.
Van Straten M, Josling P.
United Kingdom.
In this study, 168 subjects received either a placebo or vitamin C supplement for 60 days during the winter months to determine the effects of vitamin C on the common cold. Those receiving vitamin C had significantly fewer colds, if they got a cold, the severity and duration of symptoms were less than the placebo group. The authors conclude that vitamin C was effective in dealing with the common cold.
PMID: 12201356

Mutat Res. 2002 Jun 27;518(1):1-7.
In vivo antimutagenic effect of vitamins C and E against rifampicin-induced
chromosome aberrations in mouse bone-marrow cells.
Aly FA, Donya SM.
Egypt.
This study measures the genotoxic effect of the drug rifampicin (RMP) and whether vitamin C and vitamin E can protect the DNA from the toxic effect of RMP. Mice were fed either RMP, or RMP with vitamins C and/or E. The results indicated that there was a significant decrease in chromosome abnormalities in the mice treated with RMP and vitamin C. Vitamin C significantly protected bone marrow from the damaging effects of RMP.
PMID: 12063062

Indian J Exp Biol. 2002 Jun;40(6):735-8.
Effect of antioxidants (vitamin C, E and turmeric extract) on methimazole-induced hypothyroidism in rats.
Deshpande UR, Joseph LJ, Patwardhan UN, Samuel AM.
India.
The degree to which antioxidants protect against the effects of methimazole (MMI) was the subject of this study on rats. Rats were fed either MMI, MMI plus vitamin C, MMI plus vitamin E or MMI plus turmeric extract. Rats, which were fed MMI plus vitamins or turmeric had reduced thyroid gland weight, had less suppressed T3 and T4 levels and less increase in cholesterol levels. Thus, antioxidants were found to have positive effects on the thyroid gland.
PMID: 12587721

Biochem Pharmacol. 2002 May 15;63(10):1773-83.
Autoschizis: a novel cell death.
Jamison JM, Gilloteaux J, Taper HS, Calderon PB, Summers JL.
USA
According to this review, a combination of vitamin C and vitamin K kills tumor cells. It also states that a combination of vitamin C and vitamin K increasing the life span of mice with tumors.
PMID: 12034362

Diabetes Metab. 2002 Apr;28(2):107-14.
Effects of young barley leaf extract and antioxidative vitamins on LDL oxidation and free radical scavenging activities in type 2 diabetes.
Yu YM, Chang WC, Chang CT, Hsieh CL, Tsai CE.
Taiwan.
Diabetic patients (36) received either barley leaf extract (BL), or vitamin C and vitamin E (CE), or BL +CE daily for 4 weeks. The effect of the treatment on LDL levels was measured. The results indicated that vitamin C and E with BL are more effective antioxidants and my help prevent vascular diseases in type II diabetics.
PMID: 11976562

Like I said...its about where you want to look and what you want to believe.

 

[K-man]

I find it hard to believe that you couldnt find any info on Vit C.

Am J Ther. 2002 Jul-Aug;9(4):289-93.
A randomized, double-blind, controlled trial of vitamin C in the management of
hypertension and lipids.
Hajjar IM, George V, Sasse EA, Kochar MS.
USA.
In this double blind control study, 31 patients were given either 500mg, 1000 mg or 2000 mg of vitamin C daily for 8 months. While taking supplements blood pressure decreased significantly despite the dose of vitamin C. Thus, a 500 mg daily dose of vitamin C is seen as being an effective treatment in mild hypertension
PMID: 12115017

Adv Ther. 2002 May-Jun;19(3):151-9.
Preventing the common cold with a vitamin C supplement: a double-blind,placebo-controlled survey.
Van Straten M, Josling P.
United Kingdom.
In this study, 168 subjects received either a placebo or vitamin C supplement for 60 days during the winter months to determine the effects of vitamin C on the common cold. Those receiving vitamin C had significantly fewer colds, if they got a cold, the severity and duration of symptoms were less than the placebo group. The authors conclude that vitamin C was effective in dealing with the common cold.
PMID: 12201356

Mutat Res. 2002 Jun 27;518(1):1-7.
In vivo antimutagenic effect of vitamins C and E against rifampicin-induced
chromosome aberrations in mouse bone-marrow cells.
Aly FA, Donya SM.
Egypt.
This study measures the genotoxic effect of the drug rifampicin (RMP) and whether vitamin C and vitamin E can protect the DNA from the toxic effect of RMP. Mice were fed either RMP, or RMP with vitamins C and/or E. The results indicated that there was a significant decrease in chromosome abnormalities in the mice treated with RMP and vitamin C. Vitamin C significantly protected bone marrow from the damaging effects of RMP.
PMID: 12063062

Indian J Exp Biol. 2002 Jun;40(6):735-8.
Effect of antioxidants (vitamin C, E and turmeric extract) on methimazole-induced hypothyroidism in rats.
Deshpande UR, Joseph LJ, Patwardhan UN, Samuel AM.
India.
The degree to which antioxidants protect against the effects of methimazole (MMI) was the subject of this study on rats. Rats were fed either MMI, MMI plus vitamin C, MMI plus vitamin E or MMI plus turmeric extract. Rats, which were fed MMI plus vitamins or turmeric had reduced thyroid gland weight, had less suppressed T3 and T4 levels and less increase in cholesterol levels. Thus, antioxidants were found to have positive effects on the thyroid gland.
PMID: 12587721

Biochem Pharmacol. 2002 May 15;63(10):1773-83.
Autoschizis: a novel cell death.
Jamison JM, Gilloteaux J, Taper HS, Calderon PB, Summers JL.
USA
According to this review, a combination of vitamin C and vitamin K kills tumor cells. It also states that a combination of vitamin C and vitamin K increasing the life span of mice with tumors.
PMID: 12034362

Diabetes Metab. 2002 Apr;28(2):107-14.
Effects of young barley leaf extract and antioxidative vitamins on LDL oxidation and free radical scavenging activities in type 2 diabetes.
Yu YM, Chang WC, Chang CT, Hsieh CL, Tsai CE.
Taiwan.
Diabetic patients (36) received either barley leaf extract (BL), or vitamin C and vitamin E (CE), or BL +CE daily for 4 weeks. The effect of the treatment on LDL levels was measured. The results indicated that vitamin C and E with BL are more effective antioxidants and my help prevent vascular diseases in type II diabetics.
PMID: 11976562

Like I said...its about where you want to look and what you want to believe.

Thank you for posting these references.
The first on on BP is very small (31 patients). These results are just not supported by meta analysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12468560

Next one, pretty much the same.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15495002

Next one on Rifampicin induced chromosome aberrations in mice bone marrow cells does not send me rushing to the pharmacy. Not the reason most people are likely to take Vit C.

Same goes for Methimazole-induced hyperthyroidism in rats.

The next one was interesting but once again an experiment on mice with unspecified type of tumor. Not what most people are using vitamins for.

The next one is an interesting one again. This time it is Barley leaf being examined in combination with Vit C in diabetes and the conclusion is that it MAY help.

I have no doubt that Vit C may be beneficial in some treatments or some combinations but there is no compelling evidence to suggest that taking Vit C does anything for the general population.

Like you said; "It's about where you want to look and what you want to believe".

 

[Steve]

Come on, guys. We are bombarded by waves and rays all friggin day long now. What DOESN'T cause cancer these days?

As far as I'm concerned, try to eat food that existed over 100 years ago. Take supplements that make you feel better, if you want. Or don't. Take prescription drugs instead, if you want. But remember that some of those may cause anal leakage or any of the other side effects that they are required by law to mention on the commercials.

Chances are pretty good that you'll live to around 75 or 80 if you aren't stupid or unlucky or genetically predisposed.

I exercise and eat well not because i think it will help me live longer. Instead, I eat well and exercise in order to feel as good as I can while I'm alive.

 

[K-man]

I take supplements and I believe ppl should. How else are you gonna stop oxidative stress and free radical damage? .

Eat well, don't smoke and exercise regularly. My recipe for a long and healthy life. ;-)

Here is an interesting article that points out, among other things, that eating fresh fruit and vegetables helps in protecting against damage from free radicals but taking supplements doesn't.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jun/23/vitamin-supplements-antioxidants-freeradicals

I don't take supplements and I don't believe MOST people should.

There are times when vitamin supplementation is essential like taking folic acid if you are on methotrexate or if you are contemplating pregnancy. Vit B can be beneficial in some mouth disorders if you are deficient and Vit C is indicated if you are silly enough to smoke. Vit D is required to maintain good bone density, either from sunlight or supplement.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Come on, guys. We are bombarded by waves and rays all friggin day long now. What DOESN'T cause cancer these days?

As far as I'm concerned, try to eat food that existed over 100 years ago. Take supplements that make you feel better, if you want. Or don't. Take prescription drugs instead, if you want. But remember that some of those may cause anal leakage or any of the other side effects that they are required by law to mention on the commercials.

Chances are pretty good that you'll live to around 75 or 80 if you aren't stupid or unlucky or genetically predisposed.

I exercise and eat well not because i think it will help me live longer. Instead, I eat well and exercise in order to feel as good as I can while I'm alive.

100-year-old food is NASTY, is what. Except maybe cheese. They say 100-year-old cheese is still good. I'm not going to eat any, though. Just sayin'...

 

[K-man]

I exercise and eat well not because i think it will help me live longer. Instead, I eat well and exercise in order to feel as good as I can while I'm alive.

Great philosophy!
(You slipped it in while I was writing.)

 

[seasoned]

Steve, at your 41yrs your not giving me a whole lot of hope here. By your post I'm looking at 10 more years, heck with all the supplements I take I was hoping for at least 20...............

 

[Kinghercules]

Eat well, don't smoke and exercise regularly. My recipe for a long and healthy life. ;-)

Here is an interesting article that points out, among other things, that eating fresh fruit and vegetables helps in protecting against damage from free radicals but taking supplements doesn't.

See now this is where the argument dont make sense (not YOU in particular but in general).
People always make this argument.

So you're sayin eatin fruits works but juicin fruits, where you extract the pulp and have only the minerals, vitamins, flavonoids and phytochemicals, dosent work.
Eatin fruits work but extractin the pulp and juice so you only have the powder form where you would have access to 100% of the phytochemicals and vitamins in that fruit wont work? Seriously?

Eatin fruits and veggies is fine but when you are tryin to stop free radical damage (FRD), DNA damage, cancer tumors, Alzheimer's...etc, I say its not enough. You have to counter cytotoxicity through oxidative stress and apoptosis. Every time you step outside (for those of us that live in cities) you come in contact with 200 different chemicals that causes FRD. To stop the damage you have to have at lest 10,000mg of VC (vitamin C) thru out the day. How is it that lions, goats & horses dont get sick? Their bodies produce 20,000mg of VC a day. Humans cant produce VC in the body.

And again, as you can find articles that show vitamins dont work (never mind that it was from the Guardian)....I can find some that show they do. From the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21835284)

Each 20 micromole/liter (μmol/L) of vitamin C in the blood reduced the heart failure death rate by nine percent. It may take only 500 mgs of vitamin C to achieve 80 micromoles/liter. Since vitamin C is not produced by the human body, and absorption rates vary among individuals, it's apparent that taking more even more vitamin C is a good heart health investment.

​