hello and your thoughts on swords?

[Jmyrm]

Hey there,

I'm Jmyrm - currently living in Toronto Canada. I've always had an interest in Martial arts, from a perspective of self defense but never got around to learning one. I'm 21 now, and though I am competative at sport I'm very "soft"... the last fight I had was in HS (which was wrestling team vs. a girl... I lost, long story, real funny though, ask me sometime).

I've also always had a bit of a 'romantic' engagement with sword-play. I'm sure that hollywood and the seven samurai have had a corrupting influence in shaping it - mai culpa moment - it looks like a ton of fun what goes on in the movies. That being said, I realize there is a difference between stage swords and the real 'I'm trying to kill you, martial art'. After alot of soul searching, I am pretty sure that if I'm going to learn to wield a sword - its going to be for self defense, and if someone is going to attack me with intent to do harm - I want to make it very certain that individual will never have a second opportunity. Don't panic, I'm not a psycopath who will be carrying concealed weapons around or cutting down defeated assailants for no reason - but like learning to use a firearm - guns are meant to kill, weapons are meant to do harm. I don't want to look good, I want to defend myself effectively - do these schools just teach to sparr in a sport?

I've googled some schools in the GTA and have found one western style (AEMMA) and about 3 eastern style schools. I'm not sure which style to go for, is there cross training? is it reccomended? I'm diving off the deep end into uncharted waters here, some guidance and opinion are most welcome! A list of good questions to ask them, and how to avoid scams would be great!

Much appreciated, and glad to be here! Rather excited to finally get the ball rolling!

Jmyrm

 

[Blindside]

Well, studying a historical sword based martial art and "wanting to defend effectively" seldom match up well together. A huge amount of your time will be spent on defending against attacks you will never ever see in real life.

Swords are cool, I have a collection, but if you actually want to have something useful, or maybe better said as "more useful," you might try another art. And here is my complete bias here, if you do think swords are cool but want a art that might be a bit more functional in the modern world, you might look at the Filipino Martial Arts as they tend to focus on shorter swords and other blades, sticks, and pretty much anything you can get your hands on.

As an example in your area:
http://www.kalideleon.com/profile.htm

Good luck on your search,

 

[Jmyrm]

appreciate that blindside - I do see your point. I thought that the sword stuff also had "grappling?" which was more in close hand stuff (again correct me if im wrong please!). Yes swords are cool, one of the reasons I think it would help me stay interested (also love the history of the time) - Another fun fact is I've been stopped at knife point (in this age?) before - never at gun point and hope never to be either!

I will definately check out that link though - from your description it might just be what im looking for!

Cheers,
Jmyrm

 

[Ken Morgan]

Southern Ontario is blessed with some amazing teachers in iaido, kendo, jodo, naginata and niten ichi ryu. Canada has four 7th dans in iaido, and three of them are within 100km of Toronto.

You need to visit some dojo’s and see for yourself what’s out there.

Are the AEMMA guys still down by Moss park? They’re a good group of people if you like western stuff.

As for the Japanese Sword Arts, try the Canadian Kendo Federation. http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_dojoadr.htm
Under clubs and see what’s near where you live.

Next weekend we have, (The main Canadian iaido and jodo guys) have our big seminar, http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai.seminar.html
come out and play or watch. See if its what you’re looking for.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, I do have to say that, given that you are never likely to be carrying a sword when you need one, learning a sword art, whether Western or Eastern, is not really going to aid you in self-defence directly.

Of course, like any martial art, the inculcation of an understanding of timing, distance and defensive and offensive 'lines' will not be a disadvantage when it comes to physical conflict.

The Western arts do tend to include more of the physical, 'grappling' type of engagement, whilst in those from the East this tends to be covered by the seperate, empty-hand, arts.

This does not mean that learning how to use a sword, of any type, properly is not a deeply satisfying thing to do. Beyond the physical challenges ,there is an emphasis on personal development in terms of self-control, patience and calmness under stress (maybe more so in the Japanese sword arts than most others).

 

[David43515]

I agree that the odds of you ever having a sword on you if you needed to defend yourself are low, and needing to defend yourself from a sword wielding opponant are lower still. But that doesn`t mean it`s not sound defense. Keeping a sword in your home is legal in alot of places where firearms may not be. Or if you have small children you may not want to keep a gun around, but a sword on the wall as a decoration would be perfectly safe....er....ish.

But more importantly the basic principles of motion and footwork that you would learn translate easily to other weapons and, to an extent, empty hands. All the footwork in Aikido for example is based on kendo. And I recall one of my kung fu teachers saying that when he was a young soldier in the Chinese army his unit was stationed on the border and often had clashes with Soviet troops. They didn`t want these clashes to escalate to the use of firearms, but most of the Chinese soldiers were much smaller than the Soviets......so they were taught sword techniques and used riot batons on the Soviets.

 

[Jmyrm]

Oh dear! I think I've erred a bit here in my explanation. Clearly, law enforcement would have issue with me carrying a sword around town - I suppose what I should have said was I'm not so much interested in learning a new sport - I would like to learn how to wield the weapon as it would have been used hundreds of years ago. If there isn't a scrap of difference, please chalk it up to my ignorance on the subject! Many years from now, when walking home from a practice with my brand new sword i brought to show off... if some hypothetical robber with a broadsword came after me, i wouldn't want to have to find a ref to make sure his moves were legal... that's all.

I think I've got your opinion on swords - perhaps I should reevaluate and ask a different question. Assuming I wish to pursue it as a "hobby", my previous questions stand. As for practical self defense (that I could use), what would compliment it? I'm sure there are volumes posted on the subject - I'd appreciate if you bear with me while I catch up on some reading!

Cheers,
Jmyrm

 

[Ken Morgan]

Hobby? Western or iaido.
Sparring? Kendo or fencing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Look into Budo Taijutsu as the sword is integrated with the natural movement and what you do will apply to other tools and or empty hands. Then I would recommend an iaido school in conjunction for refinement and polishing!

 

[Jmyrm]

Hobby?

If I read correctly it isn't practical self defense anymore, and I won't be doing it professionally - it can be a lifelong discipline but it wont be 'the' defining activity of my life, what would describe the activity then?

Western or iaido.
Sparring? Kendo or fencing.

As for the rest, thats what I'm asking about! From what I've researched on these forums there are good (?) schools in both western (AEMMA) and eastern (Kim Taylor for one) styles within an hour's drive from the GTA. If the limitation on available schooling is removed does it just come down to personal preference and cost? What are your opinions?

Alot of the terminology still feels blurry to me. I've read about kendo/fencing which is described as a sport sometimes learned in conjunction with something called Iaido, which I read is the drawing of the sword. There is also kenjutsu, which differs from kendo in equipment and apparently is more "classical"??

Cheers!
Jmyrm

 

[Ken Morgan]

OK.

Really, you need to get out to the various clubs and see the choices that are out there first hand.

Fencing and kendo are an amazing way to get a workout. Are they a sport? That fight has been going on for decades by people more qualified then I. If I was going back in time to 13th century Japan or Europe, I would learn both before I went back. If you want to spar with an opponent, do one of those. I know people who have been practicing kendo for more decades then I have been alive.

Iaido is drawing the sword, (Kim Taylor, Ohmi Sensei, Cruise Sensei in southern Ontario are the one’s to seek out), there is no sparring. It is mostly individual kata done solo. There is partner practice you will do later, but these are also kata, done with a partner. All three of the gentlemen I have mentioned have been practicing for 30 years plus.

Kenjitsu is also partner practice kata. There is no sparring. There are very, very few people who teach any kenjitsu in Canada. Those that do teach it, do so as an aid to teaching iaido or other arts, Kim Taylor teaches it in conjunction with iaido.

I have been practicing iaido and jodo, with some kenjitsu thrown in for 11 years. It becomes a life long obsession if you let it. I feel I have learned an amazing amount about how to use a sword, the grip, how to move, taking an opponents timing, moving at the last nano-second, knowing what is going to miss you by two inches and not flinching.

There is so much to learn with any of these arts, it can become a life time journey if you let it.

 

[Langenschwert]

I know Dave from AEMMA (had the pleasure of training with him for an evening last summer). AEMMA has a good solid cirriculum, and David Cvet knows his stuff. You WILL learn to grapple at AEMMA and be better for it.

Kim Taylor Sensei also knows his stuff. He made my Niten and Kageryu bokuto sets (which are superb!), and I attended his Jodo seminar here last year. Excellent instructor.

Assuming you have infinite time, do both! I train and teach German longsword, and study HNIR with the guys from the Dosokai chapter here in Calgary.

What it comes down to is what you want out of the experience. In the end, a lot of it is the same stuff. As Hanko Dobringer said "there is but one art of the sword". A diagonal cut is a diagonal cut. It's called a Kesa in Japanese, a Fendente in Italian, and a Zornhau in German. It's the same damn cut!

Training with either AEMMA or Taylor sensei is a rare opportunity. Visit both and see what you like. The main thing is to stick with it past the "why am I doing this to myself?" part that comes when you're really tired and it seems like you can't take another swing.

Good luck in your training!

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Laus]

I'm not sure of any schools in Toronto that strictly teach sword arts, but there is an Aikido dojo dowtown (Yonge & Gerrard), headed by Kimeda Takeshi Sensei, that also teaches Iaido (sword) and Jodo (stick & sword). When I have been in Toronto I have had occasion to train there and was impressed. Sensei Kim Taylor of the Sei Do Kei at the University of Guelph regularly holds seminars at the dojo (or did 2 years ago, I haven't been there in some time), and I have trained under him on numerous occassions and can attest to his devotion and skill.

Taylor is also responsible for hosting the annual Canadian Kendo Federation seminar at U Guelph, a 4 day affair held every spring during which Jodo and Iaido-ka are trained, tested and promoted by the Japanese heads of these arts. Very worth looking into if only for the experience of training with these masters. Speaking of the CKF, you might as well check them out for more information about sword arts and affiliated dojos (links at the bottom).

Now, if you want to be training with a partner I would take Jodo over Iaido, as the kata are all 2-man. However, you will be training with a bokken (wood) rather than a steel sword. Iaido is a solitary affair but with an actual sword.

As far as self defense goes, again, I would go with Jodo, because it more closely resembles what happens if some drunk guy at the bar comes at you with a pool cue. That said, you will only be trained how to defend yourself if you happen to have some kind of stick-like object in your hand. If you want to be more thoroughly prepared for a self-defense situation you're going to require hand to hand training. A dojo which teachs both weapons and empty hand arts might be worth looking into. It would be a bit much to try all of that at once though if you have no background in martial combat of any kind. I would discuss it with the instructors of whatever schools you decide to look into and see what they have to say about how you should start out.

Links:
Kimeda Sensei: http://www.aikido.ca/

Taylor Sensei: http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/swordpage.htm

CKF: http://kendo-canada.com/

 

[Langenschwert]

I don't want to look good, I want to defend myself effectively - do these schools just teach to sparr in a sport?

Ah, missed this part. For SD, AEMMA is a better bet. You will train against resisting opponents with a variety of weapons and empty hands. For knife defence, you won't find any better than those detailed in their source material (Fiore dei Liberi's manuals). And the things you learn with an arming sword (the sword that all AEMMA students start on) can certainly be applied to a big honking flashlight or any other weapon of opportunity.

Just remember that sparring is a sport. It is, however a sport that can help prepare you for when feces hits the fan. It is not real combat, and can never be. If it were, people would die sparring. It's just another tool to help you learn how to fight.

Remember that your chances of having to defend yourself with a sword are basically nil. But the range and timing you'll learn will be invaluable, as are the knife defences.

But be sure to visit as many as you can and then make a decision. It all comes down to where you think you'll learn what you need to know.

Best regards,

-Mark