hard V soft

[skinters]

having reserched this subject, i have found there quite a few difference in opinions concerning hard V soft ,and it seems within WC its the most debated.

im only going to scratch the surface here as i know there are so many variables and the subject goes a lot deeper that what i can express personaly.

having done chisao with a number of people,and finding no 2 people apply the same pressure,i find for me at least the softer i am the more i can feel the incoming.it took me quite a long time to realise soft did not mean weak or passive,and i remain springy and tactile.

when i roll with my sifu im very suprised at the difference in pressure,and could not undertand how he could feel my intentions with such hard pressure .if i did not apply the same pressure back i felt he would just fall forwards into me,wich opens all sorts of possibilies there as you can imagine.

if i roll with those who take the soft approche, i feel intentions much more,or maybe i feel more comfortable ? not sure.

i know everyone finds their own pressure wich they can detect intentions,but i feel personaly that for me at least the softer i am the more sensitive i become.


sorry for not being clear here,i have read quite a lot of articles on the subject, but instead of just repeating what others have said, im just putting it down in my own unique brand of confusion .

 

[brocklee]

when i roll with my sifu im very suprised at the difference in pressure,and could not undertand how he could feel my intentions with such hard pressure .if i did not apply the same pressure back i felt he would just fall forwards into me,wich opens all sorts of possibilies there as you can imagine.

lol hope your sifu doesn't see this. I wouldn't necessarily say that its softer. Its more of a balance between yin and yang. I'm still rather heavy myself because it's been so long but the objective isn't to weigh the others arms down. We all know why this is a bad thing. Just the right amount is what I call Wing Chun. I go through the day using Wing Chun to describe good this. Instead of saying "Hey, nice catch!" I say, "Nice Wing Chun!"

lol I crack myself up.

 

[brocklee]

I go through the day using Wing Chun to describe good this.

I go through the day using Wing Chun to describe good things.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

You will notice that it is not that your Si Fu is muscling into you, it is that familiarity and time make your structure and stability something that is effortless and supported by neuromuscular effects.

This means that you can keep a receptive, relaxed state at the same time it is firm and stable. That way, you can survive assaults with hurtful intent and defend yourself effectively.

That is why I suggest on concentrating on rolling hands with attention to structure. Eventually, other students will say the same of you. Yet you will not get tired, since it becomes more efficient with time... like pruning movements off your movement tree.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[KamonGuy2]

Indeed, wing chun is vast and there are many different ways of doing the different drills and techniques.
In chi sao, there is gung lik and sung lik (hard and soft style), but generally the idea of wing chun is to work efficiently. If you block a strike with a tense movement you are expending energy, even if you are using your weight and structure (as opposed to muscle).

Yet sometimes you have to

If you are too relaxed and floppy you are bordering on easy to dominate if a person knows what they are doing. That is why BJJ guys have to be fairly strong as well as relaxed. Because there are times in fights when a bigger stronger guy can dominate

The idea of doing wing chun is that the smaller (weedier) guy who would have no hope of fighting a stronger/bigger guy in say boxing or karate, can gain a better chance of winning the same fight by using principles of wing chun. In other arts I have done, it has become very clear that generally the bigger guy wins. It isn't always the case, but the majority of cases

In wing chun, smaller guys have a better than good chance of holding their own, because the power is not reliant on how big the muscles are

 

[ProTaekwondo]

Indeed, wing chun is vast and there are many different ways of doing the different drills and techniques.
In chi sao, there is gung lik and sung lik (hard and soft style), but generally the idea of wing chun is to work efficiently. If you block a strike with a tense movement you are expending energy, even if you are using your weight and structure (as opposed to muscle).

Yet sometimes you have to

If you are too relaxed and floppy you are bordering on easy to dominate if a person knows what they are doing. That is why BJJ guys have to be fairly strong as well as relaxed. Because there are times in fights when a bigger stronger guy can dominate

The idea of doing wing chun is that the smaller (weedier) guy who would have no hope of fighting a stronger/bigger guy in say boxing or karate, can gain a better chance of winning the same fight by using principles of wing chun. In other arts I have done, it has become very clear that generally the bigger guy wins. It isn't always the case, but the majority of cases

In wing chun, smaller guys have a better than good chance of holding their own, because the power is not reliant on how big the muscles are

Not to discredit you but isn't a big point of BJJ to be able to conquer bigger opponents?

 

[mook jong man]

In my opinion you should be relaxed but not so relaxed that your angles collapse , somebody told me once that the amount of forward pressure you use is like the amount of pressure you use when you have your elbow leaning on a table.

The correct level of relaxation and forward force will only come to you after many , many hours of chi sau and chi sau sparring and practicing the form .

There is no short cut you have to put in the hard yards your body has to learn on a physical level from making mistakes .

My experience of rolling with my sifu and other senior people is that , to you it feels like their arms are like steel cables with overwhelming forward force but i can assure you from their end they don't feel like they are putting forth any effort at all and indeed they could roll like that all day .

The force they are generating is coming from their stance and out through their arms , a lot of senior people when they roll with junior people they stand up straight so to lessen the force on the junior person .

I experienced this once from one of my classmates who had several years of training on me , he showed me the difference in force while we were rolling .

When he stood up straight i could feel his force significantly lessen , and when he went back down into his stance it came straight back on again boreing into my centerline. So it is obvious that stance is very important.

One thing you can do to test how relaxed you are is to tell your partner to every now and again give you a sudden jolt through your arms , not hitting you in the chest , but actually giving a quick shove into your arms.

You should be able to absorb most of the force through your arms and shoulders and down into your stance .

If you get shoved back a considerable distance you need to work on relaxing your arms and shoulders so they are more shock absorber like and sink down in your stance and relax your thighs.

If you dont get moved back but your angles collapse then you are too relaxed and need to have more forward force, also elbows might be too close to your body so you have no resistance .

Somewhere between these two extremes is the happy medium you should be aiming for , but remember everything is built on your stance , just like a building if you dont have a good foundation it will collapse , get the stance right and that is half the battle won.
Hope there's something in this long ramble that has helped you

 

[brocklee]

In my opinion you should be relaxed but not so relaxed that your angles collapse , somebody told me once that the amount of forward pressure you use is like the amount of pressure you use when you have your elbow leaning on a table.

The correct level of relaxation and forward force will only come to you after many , many hours of chi sau and chi sau sparring and practicing the form .

There is no short cut you have to put in the hard yards your body has to learn on a physical level from making mistakes .

My experience of rolling with my sifu and other senior people is that , to you it feels like their arms are like steel cables with overwhelming forward force but i can assure you from their end they don't feel like they are putting forth any effort at all and indeed they could roll like that all day .

The force they are generating is coming from their stance and out through their arms , a lot of senior people when they roll with junior people they stand up straight so to lessen the force on the junior person .

I experienced this once from one of my classmates who had several years of training on me , he showed me the difference in force while we were rolling .

When he stood up straight i could feel his force significantly lessen , and when he went back down into his stance it came straight back on again boreing into my centerline. So it is obvious that stance is very important.

One thing you can do to test how relaxed you are is to tell your partner to every now and again give you a sudden jolt through your arms , not hitting you in the chest , but actually giving a quick shove into your arms.

You should be able to absorb most of the force through your arms and shoulders and down into your stance .

If you get shoved back a considerable distance you need to work on relaxing your arms and shoulders so they are more shock absorber like and sink down in your stance and relax your thighs.

If you dont get moved back but your angles collapse then you are too relaxed and need to have more forward force, also elbows might be too close to your body so you have no resistance .

Somewhere between these two extremes is the happy medium you should be aiming for , but remember everything is built on your stance , just like a building if you dont have a good foundation it will collapse , get the stance right and that is half the battle won.
Hope there's something in this long ramble that has helped you

Great points. I like the "leaning on a table" and "arms feeling like cables" comments

 

[skinters]

great post mook .

thanks

 

[mook jong man]

No worries mate , we are only here to help each other and share information regardless of what lineage we are from .

 

[geezer]

One thing you can do to test how relaxed you are is to tell your partner to every now and again give you a sudden jolt through your arms , not hitting you in the chest , but actually giving a quick shove into your arms.

You should be able to absorb most of the force through your arms and shoulders and down into your stance .

If you get shoved back a considerable distance you need to work on relaxing your arms and shoulders so they are more shock absorber like and sink down in your stance and relax your thighs.

This is an excellent exercise... and one that is very difficult for me! However, for some of my training partners who don't seem to find this challenging enough, you can up the ante by standing in classic "Character Two" stance with your feet on a narrow board (2x2) or pole laid crosswise. You have to be very flexible in your arms and shoulders and very rooted in your stance or you will teeter backwards when you get that sudden jolt.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Not to discredit you but isn't a big point of BJJ to be able to conquer bigger opponents?

Who told you that? Why do you think competition is divided into weight categories!!! Certainly a good BJJ guy can overpower a big guy who doesn't know anything about wrestling/grappling. But even then, if a big guy is using strength/weight it can take a while to get a good position.

That is the trouble with a lot of arts - they can beat their opponent but the fight is too long