Gun Disarms

[MJS]

While surfing another forum, the topic of Krav Maga gun disarms came up. Someone had mentioned the use of the underhooking of the gun hand, not being effective. If we take a look at this clip, around the 1:40 mark:

we see what I would consider to be an underhook of the gun arm. The comments on the other forum, were basically, while this technique may work in theory, nobody is going to stand there and let you underhook their arm.

IMO, going just on this clip, I'd say its pretty effective. Hopefully some of our resident Krav Maga members will chime in.

 

[MJS]

In addition to the underhooking, another 'concern' that came up was going to the inside vs the outside of the weapon arm. I'm certainly no Krav Maga expert, so I dont know if you guys do both inside and outside. In that clip, it was shown to the inside.

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Thanks for the vid.
As for the gun disarm, I haven't done it in real life, so I wouldn't know for sure about all of it. To me, it seems very effective.
At my place, they tell us the underhook is effective if you do it well, meaning you have to step closer towards them, because most people will pull back while you surprise them. If you just spin around and try to underhook someone without stepping in, this person will be out of reach, and you just spilled a chance at a good disarm. You also have to limit wrist movements, or your attacker will twist the muzzle towards you again.

Of course, there are many other factors which influence the success of your underhook. I've tried gun disarms during stress drills, and it is really difficult to pull that one off.
My main worry for the underhooking is that the gun may keep on spilling bullets, as you aren't blocking the mechanism. (I don't know about all those guns out there, so don't ask me.) When people are on the side, they might get shot.

 

[Spork3245]

Underhooking is fine (and is really the only way to control the hand gun when it is held against you in that way), as is going to the "live-side". Infact, depending on where the gun is positioned on your back you may have to go live-side to get the gun off of your body faster, but if the gun is directly in the center then you have a choice of which way to turn, however, going live-side, IMO, may offer some more control/combatives, but regardless of which way you turn, in this scenario, the gun WILL be live and WILL be firing. I have no idea who says that this is not effective, as it's the safest, and really the only, way to control a weapon you cannot see. Tell someone who doesn't think it's effective to ask an IDF soldier if it works or not, it's a combat-proven technique.

 

[MJS]

Underhooking is fine (and is really the only way to control the hand gun when it is held against you in that way), as is going to the "live-side". Infact, depending on where the gun is positioned on your back you may have to go live-side to get the gun off of your body faster, but if the gun is directly in the center then you have a choice of which way to turn, however, going live-side, IMO, may offer some more control/combatives, but regardless of which way you turn, in this scenario, the gun WILL be live and WILL be firing. I have no idea who says that this is not effective, as it's the safest, and really the only, way to control a weapon you cannot see. Tell someone who doesn't think it's effective to ask an IDF soldier if it works or not, it's a combat-proven technique.

Glad to have your input! Interestingly enough, I use the same underhooking motion with some knife disarms, that I do in Arnis.

As for where this debate stemmed from....I'll PM you some stuff over the next few days.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have been taught this move and practice it as well. The underhook in this position gives you control and you need to immediately counter strike and then strip. Thanks for the clip MJS!

 

[Chris Parker]

While surfing another forum, the topic of Krav Maga gun disarms came up. Someone had mentioned the use of the underhooking of the gun hand, not being effective. If we take a look at this clip, around the 1:40 mark:

we see what I would consider to be an underhook of the gun arm. The comments on the other forum, were basically, while this technique may work in theory, nobody is going to stand there and let you underhook their arm.

IMO, going just on this clip, I'd say its pretty effective. Hopefully some of our resident Krav Maga members will chime in.

Hey Mike,

I'm with spork and Brian here, this is a very tight control to use, and I use it against clubbing attacks, knives, when using knives, and more (yes, for pistol defence, although that isn't really a big emphasis down here, knives are far more common). This biggest concern is where the barrel is facing, really, but that has been addressed by other posters.

As for the comment that "no-one is going to stand there and let you underhook their arm", I would point out that even in the clip itself the gunman is actually trying to retreat, he is not just standing there allowing it, even in a drill (although the entire clip seemed to me to be freeform responces, rather than set drills). It you get the control tight and fast (like the instructor does here), it is really quite difficult to just "pull out of it". But it obviously needs to be done properly.

If anything, I'd be more concerned over the push-kick against an approaching knifeman....

 

[Spork3245]

Hey Mike,

I'm with spork and Brian here, this is a very tight control to use, and I use it against clubbing attacks, knives, when using knives, and more (yes, for pistol defence, although that isn't really a big emphasis down here, knives are far more common). This biggest concern is where the barrel is facing, really, but that has been addressed by other posters.

As for the comment that "no-one is going to stand there and let you underhook their arm", I would point out that even in the clip itself the gunman is actually trying to retreat, he is not just standing there allowing it, even in a drill (although the entire clip seemed to me to be freeform responces, rather than set drills). It you get the control tight and fast (like the instructor does here), it is really quite difficult to just "pull out of it". But it obviously needs to be done properly.

If anything, I'd be more concerned over the push-kick against an approaching knifeman....

This is exactly right. The "trick", which I negelected to mention, is that you aren't simply "turning around" towards the gunman, but are more-or-less "falling" into them, so you'll move with them if/when they attempt to retreat. Though, honestly, it will happen so fast that unless they are expecting you to defend, you'll have control and will be attacking them and ready to take the gun before they know what's happened.

BTW - The instructor in the video doing the technique is Chief Israeli IKMA Instructor Yigal Arbiv, he's a 4th-Dan Black Belt and will be giving a course in NJ in September, feel free to PM me if you'd like to reserve a spot. Don't mean to advertise here, just figured I'd give it a mention.

 

[Chris Parker]

This is exactly right. The "trick", which I negelected to mention, is that you aren't simply "turning around" towards the gunman, but are more-or-less "falling" into them, so you'll move with them if/when they attempt to retreat. Though, honestly, it will happen so fast that unless they are expecting you to defend, you'll have control and will be attacking them and ready to take the gun before they know what's happened.

Absolutely (sorry, I thought it was obvious to anyone who'd practiced a gun disarm from behind....). By "falling" back, you keep pressure on the gun and actually get your body around it (past it) faster than simply spinning on the spot, as well being far far safer!. It also means that if the guy does manage to pull away, you can maintain contact and still catch him incredibly quickly (after all, he'll be going backwards whereas you'll be going forward). Personally, I thought it was demonstrated incredibly well, the rear pressure was very good, and even though the gunman was moving back away, he really didn't get far, and was secured very tightly.