Ground Fighting Training and Law Enforcement - So you wanna be a cop?

[the42cop]

Ground Fighting is at an all time high with the popularity of BJJ and MMA. Any law enforcement or corrections defensive tactics program absolutely has to incorporate ground survival into its curriculum. It's important however make sure you hammer home the strategic goals of a law enforcement ground fight. Here are a few things to remember when incorporating ground fighting into your program or seeking training outside of the minimal department provided training.

Ground Fighting Training and Law Enforcement - So you wanna be a cop?

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[oaktree]

Some good stuff on there and something a lot of people who focus on sport Orient grappling do not understand about Street encounters and ground work is the weapon game. I think another part of it is the know your surroundings. Great article

 

[Hanzou]

Good stuff. I trained with a lot of cops, and they all talk about how important it is to know how to fight on the ground.

 

[Juany118]

This is a good article and pretty much sums up what I said in a thread a few months ago (weapon retention, environmental hazards, bad guy's friends etc) and how the main purpose for learning the ground game is so you can get out of the ground game (if you are alone) because of the dynamics the article notes.

The only thing it didn't cover (unless I missed it) is that the above is applicable, imo, if environment dictates and/or you are alone. One of the things I like about the Gracie Combatives (but it's too expensive for my tastes) is that they take this into account. If alone you are almost always, to some extent, vertical (such as taking a knee). If for some reason you go "low/horizontal" it's because not only the environment permits it but because you are not alone. Someone(s) always needs to be there in that vertical position so they can disengage and address a new threat ASAP, if necessary.

Luckily in my area there are a couple of instructors who teach arts that have grappling/ground fighting (BJJ, Kali, Jujutsu and a couple others) that are also active or retired LEO or Military. The same rules, regarding "going low/horizontal" apply to both in my experience.



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[drop bear]

The stand up sweep submit concept.

http://www.bjjee.com/articles/mma-guard-vs-bjj-guard-how-to-use-the-guard-in-both-scenarios/

 

[drop bear]

This is a good article and pretty much sums up what I said in a thread a few months ago (weapon retention, environmental hazards, bad guy's friends etc) and how the main purpose for learning the ground game is so you can get out of the ground game (if you are alone) because of the dynamics the article notes.

The only thing it didn't cover (unless I missed it) is that the above is applicable, imo, if environment dictates and/or you are alone. One of the things I like about the Gracie Combatives (but it's too expensive for my tastes) is that they take this into account. If alone you are almost always, to some extent, vertical (such as taking a knee). If for some reason you go "low/horizontal" it's because not only the environment permits it but because you are not alone. Someone(s) always needs to be there in that vertical position so they can disengage and address a new threat ASAP, if necessary.

Luckily in my area there are a couple of instructors who teach arts that have grappling/ground fighting (BJJ, Kali, Jujutsu and a couple others) that are also active or retired LEO or Military. The same rules, regarding "going low/horizontal" apply to both in my experience.



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And side control is hell on the knees on the concrete.

 

[the42cop]

And side control is hell on the knees on the concrete.

Yess! ^^ I took a week long Ground Survival instructor course awhile ago where we had to practice in full uniform with gear in a variety of environments, including an asphalt parking lot, gravel lot and carpet. I practice BJJ 2-3 times a week for the past 3 years and it was a HUGE eye opener for me! Not only is side control a *****, all of it is extremely difficult. Even something simple like shrimping is almost not possible at all...at least not the way it works in the nice padded gym! In the gym with fans blowing the sweat from my delicate little face and where I have mastered the ONE move that will end all pain... A gentle *tap tap tap* accompanied by "Ouch ouch ouch!"

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[drop bear]

Yess! ^^ I took a week long Ground Survival instructor course awhile ago where we had to practice in full uniform with gear in a variety of environments, including an asphalt parking lot, gravel lot and carpet. I practice BJJ 2-3 times a week for the past 3 years and it was a HUGE eye opener for me! Not only is side control a *****, all of it is extremely difficult. Even something simple like shrimping is almost not possible at all...at least not the way it works in the nice padded gym! In the gym with fans blowing the sweat from my delicate little face and where I have mastered the ONE move that will end all pain... A gentle *tap tap tap* accompanied by "Ouch ouch ouch!"

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Scarf hold is much nicer on the body. If you are going to be there for a bit.

and if you want to be a complete bastard.

A mate of mine did this to a guy in a fight. Said he could actually see the point where his soul just broke.

 

[oaktree]

My problem with traditional scarf hold is look at uke right hand it is not under control, he could easily pull a knife and stab you. Second hold better but again leaves that right hand open,try this, take your thumb and your index finger push it slightly in your trachea were your Adam's apple is feel that?
Try bending your fingers in using the first knuckle and touch your Adam's apple feel that this is the type of things sport grapplers don't consider in a real life or death confrontation, I have said it before, a grappler can take me to ground mount me get me an armbar even break my arm but I'll slice up his kidneys, stomach and neck as he is doing it. It's not a dig at grapplers it's a dig at sport grappling who use sport techniques without modification for dealing with someone who is prepared to kill you on the street.

 

[Juany118]

My problem with traditional scarf hold is look at uke right hand it is not under control, he could easily pull a knife and stab you. Second hold better but again leaves that right hand open,try this, take your thumb and your index finger push it slightly in your trachea were your Adam's apple is feel that?
Try bending your fingers in using the first knuckle and touch your Adam's apple feel that this is the type of things sport grapplers don't consider in a real life or death confrontation, I have said it before, a grappler can take me to ground mount me get me an armbar even break my arm but I'll slice up his kidneys, stomach and neck as he is doing it. It's not a dig at grapplers it's a dig at sport grappling who use sport techniques without modification for dealing with someone who is prepared to kill you on the street.

Well the other issue you have is that head/neck are red zones (at least in US LEO UoF) and so many Department Policies have major issues with head and neck control maneuvers unless you would already be able to say, use a baton, even lethal force.

As for vertical vs horizontal in my mind I was picturing a pair I being mostly horizontal controlling the upper body via arms, not head/neck and the "vertical" guy controlling the legs (as one example.)

Especially since the Garner case in Staten Island New York anything that comes close to head/neck control is basically a no-go unless you could justify weapons use.

As for free arms I agree, especially when alone it's not good, unless you are in a completely dominant position (bad guy face down in the dirt).

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[oaktree]

I understand about the red zone, I think if one is to apply the scarf hold civilian case, its for either a moment to gain a better ground transition or after a weapon sweep.
In my classes we are taught always assume the other guy has a weapon and attempt in a fight is to kill you. I think a lot of sport Orient arts think the fight is just trading punches and no one is trying to kill each other. I think you are safer assuming the worse from your attacker doesn't mean you have to do the worse to him but I would rather be in control of the situation then my attacker killing me intentionally or unintentionally.
I think it's critical to know the grappling game no doubt about it, I think knowing the holes in the game that can be exploited by someone who knows the game and brings weapons into the game changes the game drastically.

 

[drop bear]

I understand about the red zone, I think if one is to apply the scarf hold civilian case, its for either a moment to gain a better ground transition or after a weapon sweep.
In my classes we are taught always assume the other guy has a weapon and attempt in a fight is to kill you. I think a lot of sport Orient arts think the fight is just trading punches and no one is trying to kill each other. I think you are safer assuming the worse from your attacker doesn't mean you have to do the worse to him but I would rather be in control of the situation then my attacker killing me intentionally or unintentionally.
I think it's critical to know the grappling game no doubt about it, I think knowing the holes in the game that can be exploited by someone who knows the game and brings weapons into the game changes the game drastically.

You can catch both arms. So unless he stabs you with a concealed blade in his shoe. You should be pretty safe.

 

[oaktree]

I can agree with getting both arms, I would use my other leg to wrap around that arm to free my other hand to search search, call for help or throw some punches in.

 

[drop bear]

I can agree with getting both arms, I would use my other leg to wrap around that arm to free my other hand to search search, call for help or throw some punches in.

 

[Juany118]

You can catch both arms. So unless he stabs you with a concealed blade in his shoe. You should be pretty safe.

My only concern again is that the neck is also included, even if it is with his arm. Now, don't get me wrong, I will do what I have to do to go home, that includes rakeing eyes, groin grab and twists, don't care. BUT things like this have to be seen in this context.

All I mean is this btw. I have seen officers who were good at BJJ get into trouble because they submited a use of force memo that illustrates they went to a red zone to "finish it" as quickly as possible. That is the goal in sport certainly but in this line of work you have to be able to explain what justified you going for a red zone based on what the suspect was doing. If all you can say is "to arrest ASAP the guy I did X" and you can't say "A, B and C justified me doing X" there is going to be a problem thanks to a combination of the US being litigious as hell for years compounded by the fact Police UoF is now a political cause celeb.

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[drop bear]

My only concern again is that the neck is also included, even if it is with his arm. Now, don't get me wrong, I will do what I have to do to go home, that includes rakeing eyes, groin grab and twists, don't care. BUT things like this have to be seen in this context.

All I mean is this btw. I have seen officers who were good at BJJ get into trouble because they submited a use of force memo that illustrates they went to a red zone to "finish it" as quickly as possible. That is the goal in sport certainly but in this line of work you have to be able to explain what justified you going for a red zone based on what the suspect was doing. If all you can say is "to arrest ASAP the guy I did X" and you can't say "A, B and C justified me doing X" there is going to be a problem thanks to a combination of the US being litigious as hell for years compounded by the fact Police UoF is now a political cause celeb.

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Yeah but knee on belly is technically positional asphyxia. So pretty much holding a person in a manner that keeps them actually down runs those risks.

Here we go the wiki example has the nice knee on belly photo as an example.

Positional asphyxia - Wikipedia

Technically you are supposed to hold a guy in that srtaight arm wrist lock thing. But I can pretty much guarantee nobody would be able to hold me down in that there is too much space.

You can key lock that gift wrapped arm if you want. But you are adding complexity and therefore risk.

 

[oaktree]

Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah but knee on belly is technically positional asphyxia. So pretty much holding a person in a manner that keeps them actually down runs those risks.

Here we go the wiki example has the nice knee on belly photo as an example.

Positional asphyxia - Wikipedia

Technically you are supposed to hold a guy in that srtaight arm wrist lock thing. But I can pretty much guarantee nobody would be able to hold me down in that there is too much space.

You can key lock that gift wrapped arm if you want. But you are adding complexity and therefore risk.

Oh positional asphyxia is something else we also cover BUT that is seen (not saying right or wrong) as "stuff happens" if you are mid fight because the chance of death or serious bodily injury is, from a statistical point of view, far lower than head/neck control. Where you get jammed there is if you say hog tie a suspect and shove him in the back of a squad lying on their belly. That isn't in the heat of a fight so the "stuff happens" goes out the window.

That said the "LE standard" here (as opposed to formal private training) is to apply your weight in the area of the shoulder blades in terms of torso to minimize the dynamic.

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[Juany118]

Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.

If things go right probably no problem. For a moment though think "Murphy's law". If you can't justify going there out of the gate, he zigs when he should have zagged and now you have a guy with herniated disks or something you will be asked "and why did you go to the guy's head/neck with a hold like that." Murphy likes me a little to much so I worry about stuff like that.

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[Juany118]

Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.

Note, my prior response doesn't mean you have to "work up" to such a technique, you can "skip steps" so to speak but you do need to be able to objectively justify the reasonableness of it.

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