Gimme the lowdown: JKA vs SKA Shotokan

[SPX]

Just a quick question here for you experienced karate guys. . .

What are the big differences between JKA and SKA karate? (I'm speaking generally, so we can get past the "it's the dojo not the org" preliminaries.)

I recently became aware of a local SKA Shotokan dojo and have heard that the training experience at an SKA school can be quite different than at a JKA school, so I was hoping some of you could give me some insight.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[dancingalone]

My sense of it as a complete outsider is that Ohshima Sensei supported a softer, more fluid interpretation of karate than his eventual rival Nishiyama Sensei. This is borne out generally by how the higher level dans of his org perform kata comparatively though not to the extent as seen by disciples of Egami (Ohshima's sempai).

Now what does this mean in terms of daily training? I have no idea, not having trained the system. Speaking at a high level, soft striking systems try to create power through a relaxed whipping motion, and I can see some of that in examples of SKA kata I've seen.

 

[SPX]

Thanks for the response.

From the research that I've done over the past few days, everything I've encountered has said that the SKA tries to preserve Shotokan exactly as it was taught by Funakoshi. One poster said that watching an SKA class was like "traveling in a time machine back to 1955." Another mentioned that the Karate-Do Kyohan is followed to the letter and is the final authority. Still another JKA guy said he wasn't too familiar with the SKA but after watching some YouTube vids he thought that "it looks very 80s/early 90s WUKO, not as structured as the JKA style, not as flashy as the WKF nowadays, a very raw but strong style of Shoto."

Lastly, someone responded in another thread I created with this teasing testimonial:

"Since I'm a member of SKA, there's probably a lot of things I could say. But I've always been reluctant to mention it, because it's just not important. We have these discussions on the Internet about martial arts to share ideas, not plug our school/gym/whatever.

I will tell you to look into joining, though. All teachers are different, but...throughout all of SKA, I think you'll find people who really have a different understanding of martial arts compared to most places you'll find in the United States.

I think my opinion of SKA is pretty high because my initial martial arts experience was several years in a McDojo organization. It was crap, and I realized it pretty quickly when I started learning from my current instructor. There's so much to learn, chances are you'll get something good out of it from someone in SKA."

I have to say that my interest is peaked. I'm going to go take a look at this class and see how it goes.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

I think Dancing Alone hit it squarely, and I think his short, informative post is correct. Think "more flowing" vs "hard stops." (an oversimplification, of course, but maybe gives the sense of the 2 styles)

I'd repeat also a story from one of Kanazawa Sensei's books, although I am paraphrasing. WHen Kanazawa was a young man, he trained with Funakoshi, who was quite elderly. Previously, Kanazawa trained with an older instructor, who had trained with Funakoshi pre-WWII, when Funakoshi was a relatively young and fit man himself. Kanazawa noted that Funakoshi was performing and teaching a traditional form (Kanku Dai maybe? Don't remember now) in a fashion far different that the version Kanazawa had learned from Funakoshi's former student. He asked Funakoshi about why the form was being performed in 2 different ways, one being taught at the time, and the other from decades earlier. Funakoshi replied that as an older man, in his 80's, he could no longer perform the kata the way he used to. So, the version Kanazawa learned from his instructor reflected Funakoshi in his prime, while the latest version reflected Fuankoshi as an old man. I think the moral to this story is not to slavishly enshrine an instructor's every move, but to think kata as adaptable to one's physical state. So, when we talk about Funakoshi and the way he taught, we should be careful not to get caught up in this same seeming paradox. What Funakoshi learned in Okinawa as a youngster, and then changed and taught in 1930 was probably far different than what he taught in 1957. It's commendable to be loyal to a style or group or instructor, but I think no one style can claim to own the legacy of pioneers like Funakoshi.
Just my opinion, and of course, not worth arguing about. Each to his own.

 

[SPX]

Beyond any differences in technique, what seems most obvious to me is that the SKA has pretty specific philosophical underpinnings.

I also wonder how the sparring, on average, compares to other Shotokan orgs. Harder? Softer?

 

[SPX]

Wow, what happened since I was last around these parts? The Karate forum on MT is dead. Someone read it its last rights.

 

[Grenadier]

Regarding the kumite aspect, it depends on the dojo.

Some SKA dojos take the approach that putting a heavier emphasis on controlled ippon kumite is the best way, believing that Funakoshi preferred it this way, while others have embraced the use of more jiyu kumite. Some of the dojos that I've seen did very little, if any, free sparring.

In all honesty, the distribution of such preferences is about the same as you would see with most other Shotokan dojos, whether they were JKA, ISKF, SKIF, etc.

 

[wjp]

I practiced SKA for several years. I became a Shodan and was a year or 2 away from testing for Neidan.

SKA was one of the first styles of Karate brought to the US and turned into an official organization. It’s not expensive to practice as it is a non profit organization. The Founder, Tsutomu Ohshima was one of Funakoshi’s students and received a 5th degree blackbelt under Funakoshi, the highest degree given at the time, so that is the highest degree a person can get in SKA. It is a traditional form of Shotokan, emphasizing real life technique of self defense, (eye gouging, low kicks to the groin and knees, foot stomping, aiming for the throat, ect. Techniques are kept simple. Distance and timing are a main point of focus. It’s not very sporty and can gravitate to more mental and physical conditioning depending on the dojo.

Different aspects are emphasized depending on dojo and instructor. But basically the premise of the technique is less is more, and speed produces power, and speed is achieved through relaxation. Maximum power is ultimately produced by speed, alignment, and proper distribution of body weight. Stances are wide. Punches usually end at the pinnacle of a movement, basically when your front foot hits the floor. This is one difference when I look at katas and basics from JKA- that there tends to be a kind of wind-up resulting in a delayed punch. For instance, if you are stepping with a reverse punch, in JKA the foot lands and then the punch and rotation of the hips follows. In SKA the rotation of the hips tends to happen as you take the step, so a maximum combination of speed, hip rotation, and alignment with body weight happens at the point of impact, and at the point of impact the fist is tightened, lightly tensed “extended”- the only point where “muscle” is used. There is always an emphasis of no power in the shoulders.


Katas tend to be not very flashy, and can sometimes appear lazy, especially by higher belts. I don’t believe this is necessarily intentional. I think it comes down to the philosophy that “less is more”. A lot of times younger (50 yr old) Godans perform katas that look like the movements of 75 year old men. I’ve never really completely understood why, especially when compared to Ohshima. There’s a video from early 2000s of Ohshima doing hangetsu when he was close to 70. He moves like a cat and the movements are a beautiful combination of hard and soft, fast and slow.


One of my main instructors was a total rough neck. He had been a bouncer when he was younger, and had been in 100s of fights. He had been stabbed numerous times, and maybe even shot. He always said Shotoka, when practiced in its complete form, was one of the most well rounded fighting styles, but he also emphasized that you needed to learn to fight on the ground because that is where most fights end up. So when I was in a position to start training again, and couldn’t find an SKA dojo, and didn’t want to learn another form of Karate, I just started practicing Brazilian Jiujitsu and Judo.

 

[Grenadier]

Punches usually end at the pinnacle of a movement, basically when your front foot hits the floor. This is one difference when I look at katas and basics from JKA- that there tends to be a kind of wind-up resulting in a delayed punch. For instance, if you are stepping with a reverse punch, in JKA the foot lands and then the punch and rotation of the hips follows.

That is true, but such mechanics are only used at the beginner's level, where they're basically learning how to make the right shapes.

Once someone gets to the more advanced levels, it's rare that such asynchronous movement is used in any JKA or JKA-inspired dojo.

 

[Hchamp031]

I agree with SPX, I train and are ranked both (SKA and JKA style) and still see JKA black belts that visited While I was training at SKA executing reverse punch as described (foot landing before the punch). It is why it was quite easy to time and counter them when we would practice ippon Kumite(1 time engagement) with strong feeling. Its just a different methodology on how different students taught Funakoshis Karate. Just like JKA, SKA dojos vary and have different focuses. Some JKA dojos I've been to were very soft in training while others were more tense while both preserving JKA's philosophy of executing technique. I have seen the same with SKA dojos, some train intense while adhering to Oshimas philosophy and some are just too soft for me which is why I tend to train where practice is harder making me sweat more.

SPX also has a point how SKA has pretty philosophical underpinnings. The practice of engaging like a creeping up Lion ready to pounce, being stable on the floor and feeling out your opponent translates to timing and distance management, its something that was not really emphasized when I trained JKA as we were more sport focused. JKA taught me more variety of ways to throw kicks at different heights and angles while SKA kept it simple and direct as the poster above mentioned. It took me years to really grasp the concept of the body "moving as ONE".. but now I know why as I saw it with small details like "punches ending at the pinnacle of movement" 1 time engagement againts a JKA stylist. No matter how much the instructor tried to tell them what they were doing different, it was still hard for them to grasp due to their long years of dedication to their previous style.

Either way I think both styles are excellent and have much to offer, some are driven by the competition aspect of Karate while others want to focus more of the traditional mental aspect. I wouldn't have a problem training with either one depending which one is available.

One person I admire is Rick Hotton Sensei, he seems to have a good blend of philosophy which can be found from both styles (SKA/JKA) even though he is mainly of JKA orgin. Seems non biased and interesting in his instruction and philosophy. He welcomes other Karate systems to sincerely share ideas.

 

[Martial D]

I agree with SPX, I train and are ranked both (SKA and JKA style) and still see JKA black belts that visited While I was training at SKA executing reverse punch as described (foot landing before the punch). It is why it was quite easy to time and counter them when we would practice ippon Kumite(1 time engagement) with strong feeling. Its just a different methodology on how different students taught Funakoshis Karate. Just like JKA, SKA dojos vary and have different focuses. Some JKA dojos I've been to were very soft in training while others were more tense while both preserving JKA's philosophy of executing technique. I have seen the same with SKA dojos, some train intense while adhering to Oshimas philosophy and some are just too soft for me which is why I tend to train where practice is harder making me sweat more.

SPX also has a point how SKA has pretty philosophical underpinnings. The practice of engaging like a creeping up Lion ready to pounce, being stable on the floor and feeling out your opponent translates to timing and distance management, its something that was not really emphasized when I trained JKA as we were more sport focused. JKA taught me more variety of ways to throw kicks at different heights and angles while SKA kept it simple and direct as the poster above mentioned. It took me years to really grasp the concept of the body "moving as ONE".. but now I know why as I saw it with small details like "punches ending at the pinnacle of movement" 1 time engagement againts a JKA stylist. No matter how much the instructor tried to tell them what they were doing different, it was still hard for them to grasp due to their long years of dedication to their previous style.

Either way I think both styles are excellent and have much to offer, some are driven by the competition aspect of Karate while others want to focus more of the traditional mental aspect. I wouldn't have a problem training with either one depending which one is available.

One person I admire is Rick Hotton Sensei, he seems to have a good blend of philosophy which can be found from both styles (SKA/JKA) even though he is mainly of JKA orgin. Seems non biased and interesting in his instruction and philosophy. He welcomes other Karate systems to sincerely share ideas.

Protip: look at dates on posts before replying. The OP hasn't been on MT in nearly a decade

 

[Hchamp031]

Protip: look at dates on posts before replying. The OP hasn't been on MT in nearly a decade

Oops how do i remove the post?

 

[Buka]

Oops how do i remove the post?

No worries about the post.

And I just wanted to say welcome to Martial Talk, Hchamp.

 

[Hchamp031]

No worries about the post.

And I just wanted to say welcome to Martial Talk, Hchamp.

Thanks Buka!