FORWARD - CHANGE - Welcome to the Machine

[jasonbrinn]

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well, begging your pardon, but that is completely incorrect.

http://www.gohealthinsurance.com/he...ividual-mandate-under-health-care-reform.html

Starting in 2014, the fine for not having insurance will be either $95 or 1 percent of a person's income — whichever is greater. Then in 2015, the fine will be either $325 or 2 percent of income. In 2016, the fine will be $695 or 2.5 percent of income. After 2016, the fine will be based on the cost-of-living adjustment every year.

There are exceptions to this rule. Americans do not have to purchase coverage if their income is below the Federal Poverty Line and health insurance premiums would cost more than 8 percent of their monthly income. In this case, most would be eligible for Medicaid or federal subsidies to help pay for health insurance. People who are opposed to the individual mandate for religious reasons also do not have to purchase health insurance.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs...he-health-insurance-mandate-penalty-will-work

Due to expected confusion in the early years of the program, more people may face penalties. But it's unclear what will happen if they don't pay them. The ACA forbids the IRS from aggressive efforts to collect the penalty from people who don't pay. The biggest stick the agency may have is to withhold tax refunds from those who owe penalties.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20120802new-tax-home-sales-overblown-rumor.html

It's not quite up there with alligators living in sewers, but an urban legend is forming around a provision of the Affordable Care Act recently upheld by the Supreme Court.

The health-care legislation touted by President Barack Obama includes a provision that could result in a partial capital-gain tax on homes sold by a small number of taxpayers. But e-mail blasts claiming all transactions would be subject to a housing sales tax are inaccurate, experts say.

At issue is the new 3.8 percent tax on the investment earnings of upper-income households. This provision, designed to help fund Medicare, will take effect in January unless Republicans in Congress can follow through on vows to scuttle it.

"That provision provides the rumors with a kernel of truth," wrote Jack Hagel and Alistair Nevius for the Journal of Accountancy. "A very small number of taxpayers will pay a surtax on gain from the sale of a principal residence."
...
In short, this provision is confusing and subject to misinterpretation, but most homesellers won't be affected by it.

I dislike Obamacare very much.

Not enough to lie about it.

The graphic that you posted without attribution is pure, 100%, unadulterated, lies.

You might consider correcting yourself.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, begging your pardon, but that is completely incorrect.

http://www.gohealthinsurance.com/he...ividual-mandate-under-health-care-reform.html



http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs...he-health-insurance-mandate-penalty-will-work



http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20120802new-tax-home-sales-overblown-rumor.html



I dislike Obamacare very much.

Not enough to lie about it.

The graphic that you posted without attribution is pure, 100%, unadulterated, lies.

You might consider correcting yourself.

It's actually half-truths which are worse than outright lies. That kernel of truth makes it all seem believable, but the real truth is very different.

this kind of dis-information engaged in by the OP is pathetic.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's actually half-truths which are worse than outright lies. That kernel of truth makes it all seem believable, but the real truth is very different.

this kind of dis-information engaged in by the OP is pathetic.

I see if from both sides of the political spectrum, but at the moment, the GOP is still butt-hurt from the drubbing they took in the recent election, and they're lashing out in all directions. Sadly, truth is the victim here.

Obamacare = bad.
Lying about Obamacare = also bad.

I don't like either one. I have enough real issues to deal, with, I don't need someone's manufactured, fake, outrage to add to the list.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see if from both sides of the political spectrum, but at the moment, the GOP is still butt-hurt from the drubbing they took in the recent election, and they're lashing out in all directions. Sadly, truth is the victim here.

Obamacare = bad.
Lying about Obamacare = also bad.

I don't like either one. I have enough real issues to deal, with, I don't need someone's manufactured, fake, outrage to add to the list.

I don't feel the same way about Obamacare as you do, but I agree: if there's to be a discussion about it then the real facts should be in the discussion and not fabrications, lies, nor half-truths. Otherwise there is simply no point, none of what is discussed is true.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And it shows a complete lack of understanding of the meaning of the song "Welcome to the Machine" as well

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time,
provided with toys and Scouting for Boys.
You bought a guitar to punish your ma,
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream.
You dreamed of a big star, he played a mean guitar,
He always ate in the Steak Bar. He loved to drive in his Jaguar.
So welcome to the machine.

 

[arnisador]

There's been so much GOP disinformation put out about healthcare that some people will believe anything about it now.

 

[Carol]

Since when has truth mattered more than the letter next to a persons name?

 

[jasonbrinn]

Well, begging your pardon, but that is completely incorrect.

http://www.gohealthinsurance.com/he...ividual-mandate-under-health-care-reform.html



http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs...he-health-insurance-mandate-penalty-will-work



http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20120802new-tax-home-sales-overblown-rumor.html



I dislike Obamacare very much.

Not enough to lie about it.

The graphic that you posted without attribution is pure, 100%, unadulterated, lies.

You might consider correcting yourself.

Bill, with all do respect. I don't care for either side, Dem or Rep, I am a patriot and a Christian. I don't lie and I find it offensive for people to suggest that I do and even more offensive for people to say that I lie for some agenda. My morals aren't for sale.

What I posted is what I actually read from the Bill itself. I read over 1,000 pages of the 2,572 page bill that actually contradicts itself more times than not. I guess what you posted can/could/maybe/will/who-the-hell-knows change since provisions were written allowing for it to change as needed without notification by the President. Heck, our "representatives" that passed it said you can't know what is in it until they pass it themselves.

1. The quote about the fine starting in 2014 is accurate, although the amount of dollars will change depending on the income of the people that is is referencing. You only have to make $240K or better and the number is $2500+. I guess the graphic could be better but then again NO graphic can contain all the striations of this mammoth monstrosity!

2. The 3.8% is accurate and the quote you posted, that "expert" is wrong. There are many people who back up this fact, not to mention I read it in the bill myself. Again that can all change, it just depends on whatever whoever is power needs at the moment. The FACTS are that if you do not have insurance starting in 2014 the federal government will fine you and they will withhold your tax returns until you get it and pay the fines per the bill.

So, to recap;

- I don't care for either side, Dem or Rep, I am a patriot, a Christian and someone who has no agenda and doesn't lie!
- The first point in the graphic is correct for some, but others might pay less than the amount printed depending.
- The second point is entirely accurate, unless you sell your home at a loss.

@Flying Crane - the only thing pathetic is people who try to attack a poster and post that they do not like and provide nothing to back up their claims other than their reputation within a group (ie the definition of a bully). Think what you will about me sir, but I served this country and reserve the right to say what I think - right or wrong.

@Bill Mattocks - your comment "I have enough real issues to deal, with, I don't need someone's manufactured, fake, outrage to add to the list" is offensive and manufactured itself. You can call my post wrong and point out the issues backing up your claims but you cross the line sir when you start to act as if you can read into intentions of why it was posted. Do you honestly sit there and think you can know what was in my mind when I posted it? How is it fake? How do you determine when someone is wrong with a post or when someone is manufacturing things in a fit of outrage or outright attempting to mislead people? What if I were to go after posts you make saying that you are posting fake material that you manufactured in an effort to deceive people?

@arnisador - and some people are so skewed as to think the Dems are telling them the truth!

@Xue Sheng - funny, you posted that I showed a total lack of understanding of Pink Floyd's song yet you never outlined how that was. I in fact understand the meaning very well and it fits perfectly with the title of this thread, maybe it is you sir who doesn't understand. The song is talking about how industry/people don't actually care about "him" and they are just pushing "him" and putting pressures on "him" to keep the money flowing. Now Xue, tell me how I have that wrong.

 

[Tez3]

It's just a song about the music industry, one that Pink Floyd have done extremely well in, millionaires in fact. they probably aren't the best group to demonstrate upright thoughts lol, with songs about cross dressing and lunacy.

 

[jasonbrinn]

It's just a song about the music industry, one that Pink Floyd have done extremely well in, millionaires in fact. they probably aren't the best group to demonstrate upright thoughts lol, with songs about cross dressing and lunacy.

Agreed, but maybe that was part of the meaning (the fact that the group that is taking our money and giving us less freedoms in the name of freedom and more money has at its helm if not in action in heart the very things that the people they rule over would consider offensive). Just saying.

 

[CanuckMA]

Jason,

That graphic is propaganda at it's finest. It takes some kernels of truth. Both points are factually correct, but ignore that they only apply to a very small portion of the population. Overlaid on a picture of Obama reminiscent of pictures of Il Duce.

All to convey the message that he is a dictator that does not care and will bankrupt you.

It may not be outright lies, but it certainly is not the truth.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, with all do respect. I don't care for either side, Dem or Rep, I am a patriot and a Christian. I don't lie and I find it offensive for people to suggest that I do and even more offensive for people to say that I lie for some agenda. My morals aren't for sale.

I did not accuse you of lying, but the information in the graphic you posted is untrue. I call that lying. Not you, the graphic.

What I posted is what I actually read from the Bill itself. I read over 1,000 pages of the 2,572 page bill that actually contradicts itself more times than not. I guess what you posted can/could/maybe/will/who-the-hell-knows change since provisions were written allowing for it to change as needed without notification by the President. Heck, our "representatives" that passed it said you can't know what is in it until they pass it themselves.

You may well have read it. Yay, you. You are incorrect about what it contains. If you have the information, cite it. I will wait.

1. The quote about the fine starting in 2014 is accurate, although the amount of dollars will change depending on the income of the people that is is referencing. You only have to make $240K or better and the number is $2500+. I guess the graphic could be better but then again NO graphic can contain all the striations of this mammoth monstrosity!

The graphic makes a complete statement, without distinction, and it is incorrect. I am of the opinion that this is intentional on the part of the person or persons who made the graphic, and I will continue to label that a lie. The author(s) had no intention of encouraging others to discover the actual facts, they just blasted a lie out there as if it were true. Again, not accusing you. But you posted it. I suggested that you correct yourself. I still do.

2. The 3.8% is accurate and the quote you posted, that "expert" is wrong. There are many people who back up this fact, not to mention I read it in the bill myself. Again that can all change, it just depends on whatever whoever is power needs at the moment. The FACTS are that if you do not have insurance starting in 2014 the federal government will fine you and they will withhold your tax returns until you get it and pay the fines per the bill.

I do not care what you read, it is incorrect. Post cites if you have them.

http://blogs.rgj.com/factchecker/2012/06/17/obamacare-sales-tax-on-houses/

The Patient Protection Affordable Care Act does include a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for wealthy people, specifically individuals making more than $200,000 a year or married couples earning more than $250,000 a year.

The Tax Foundation estimates this excludes 98 percent of U.S. households.

Even if you’re a member of these two percent, there’s not a sales tax on home sales. The tax is assessed only if you make more than $250,000 on the sale (or $500,000 for couples), and even then it applies only to the amount of profit over that limit.

...
Finally, let’s say you and your spouse earn more than a quarter-million a year and you sell your $100,000 house for $650,000. On your profit of $550,000, you’ll pay an extra $1,900 in taxes due to Obamacare.

In order to have to pay the 3.8%, you personally have to make over 250K per year, and THEN you also have to make over 250K profit on the sale of the house. If that's you, then yes. If not, then no. The vast majority of Americans will not have to pay this additional 3.8% when they sell their houses.

With regard to the IRS and the penalty for not having health insurance in 2014, the graphic you posted says one thing, you're saying something else. Again, the graphic is a lie. And your statement modifying the graphic's point is also incorrect, just not the same amount of incorrect, because you are saying something very different than the graphic you posted.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/mone...RS-to-tackle-health-care-and-taxes/56108848/1

The law, however, severely limits the ability of the IRS to collect the penalties. There are no civil or criminal penalties for refusing to pay it and the IRS cannot seize bank accounts or dock wages to collect it. No interest accumulates for unpaid penalties.
So how can the IRS enforce the mandate? Scary letters and threats to withhold tax refunds.
The law allows the IRS to withhold tax refunds to collect the penalty, and most filers get refunds. This year, 77% of the 135 million individual income tax returns processed by the IRS qualified for a refund. The average refund: $2,707.

So, the graphic claimed that the IRS would reach into your bank account. That is 100% lie. You can deny it all you like, it's a lie and I'm calling it that. There is no other word for it. Again, it is not YOU I am calling a liar, but YOU posted the graphic with no other comments such as "this is not entirely correct, but it's close." YOU posted it as if it were true, and now you are backing away from that.

As to the IRS taking your refund (your nuanced statement AFTER I called out the fact that your graphic was a lie), that is true to the extent that you HAVE a tax refund due. You manage your own withholding in your W-4. If you withhold less, and therefore are due less of a refund, the IRS cannot take what is not there. In fact, Reason magazine (a conservative/libertarian organization) has stated that no one will have to pay the mandate if they don't want to, by simply changing their withholding. The IRS is forbidden by the law itself to go after you for it. They cannot sue, cannot dock your wages, cannot do ANYTHING except send scary letters and take the amount out of your refund IF YOU HAVE ONE.

http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/10/why-would-anyone-pay-the-penalty-for-bei

The law...severely limits the ability of the IRS to collect the penalties. There are no civil or criminal penalties for refusing to pay it and the IRS cannot seize bank accounts or dock wages to collect it. No interest accumulates for unpaid penalties.

So how can the IRS enforce the mandate? Scary letters and threats to withhold tax refunds.

The law allows the IRS to withhold tax refunds to collect the penalty, and most filers get refunds.

...

It should, once word gets out that the IRS is essentially powerless to collect this penalty/tax. People can even stop the IRS from taking the money out of their refunds by the simple expedient of changing their withholding so that they come out even (or owe a little) at the end of the year. (They probably should do that anyway, unless they like the idea of floating Uncle Sam an interest-free loan every year.) In practice, no refund = no tax.

@Bill Mattocks - your comment "I have enough real issues to deal, with, I don't need someone's manufactured, fake, outrage to add to the list" is offensive and manufactured itself. You can call my post wrong and point out the issues backing up your claims but you cross the line sir when you start to act as if you can read into intentions of why it was posted. Do you honestly sit there and think you can know what was in my mind when I posted it? How is it fake? How do you determine when someone is wrong with a post or when someone is manufacturing things in a fit of outrage or outright attempting to mislead people? What if I were to go after posts you make saying that you are posting fake material that you manufactured in an effort to deceive people?

I have no idea what was in your mind, because you posted a right-wing hit piece graphic without comment, leaving me to draw conclusions in a vacuum, knowing nothing other than the fact that the graphic is composed of 100% lies. I therefore formed a conclusion. If you find that offensive, I suggest you explain yourself next time BEFORE you get called on posting such a pack of lies and not afterwards.

 

[Tez3]

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Jason,

That graphic is propaganda at it's finest. It takes some kernels of truth. Both points are factually correct, but ignore that they only apply to a very small portion of the population. Overlaid on a picture of Obama reminiscent of pictures of Il Duce.

All to convey the message that he is a dictator that does not care and will bankrupt you.

It may not be outright lies, but it certainly is not the truth.

Woah up there. Let's break this piece of crap down.

Claims:

1) Starting in 2014, you will not get your tax returns unless you prove you have purchased a government plan.

LIE: The only people who have to purchase health insurance are those who do not have health insurance already, either from their employer or by themselves. No 'government plan' purchase is required if you already have health insurance. You WILL get your tax returns even if you do NOT have government-mandated health insurance, but the IRS may deduct the fine for not having it from your return IF YOU GET MONEY back.

2) If you choose not to get a Government Plan, you will be fined $2500 per year until you do, and that money will be auto-debited from your bank account.

LIE:

http://factcheck.org/2012/06/how-much-is-the-obamacare-tax/

The minimum assessment will be $695 per person (but no more than $2,085 per family) in 2016, when fully phased in. The amount can be higher depending on income. But there are exemptions for low-income persons and others.

Also, the government has NO POWER to deduct the money from your bank accounts. PERIOD.

3) Starting in 2013, if you sell your house, you have to pay an additional 3.8% fee.

LIE: If you sell your house, you have to meet two criteria to have to pay the 3.8% fee. First, you have to make over $250,000 per year. Second, you have to make over $250,000 PROFIT ($500K for married couples) to qualify for the fee. In other words, it's not how much you sell the house for, it's how much PROFIT you make on the sale. Do you know ANYONE who is currently able to sell their house for $250K more than they bought it for? So very few people will qualify for this tax. Certainly not me, probably not anyone on MT.

NOW, having said that, let's pick out ANY kernels of truth in this graphic.

1) In 2014, you have to have health insurance or you have to pay a fee to the government. If you don't have a tax return, the IRS cannot do anything about it except send you letters. They are prohibited from taking enforcement action for refusing to pay the health insurance mandate fee.

2) The amount of the fine is quite a bit lower than $2,500, and it is based on income; many people won't have to pay much of a fine at all. And NO, the government will NOT take that money out of your bank account automatically. It is absolutely forbidden in the current law.

3) When you sell a house, there is a new 3.8% fee, but only if you personally earn over $250K AND you make over $250K profit on the sale ($500K for couples). Very very few people will have pay the tax.

But those truths, boiled down, don't sound very outrageous. They don't encourage people to get all up in arms and run wild in the streets foaming at the mouth.

So the person or persons who made the graphic lied their butts off. Manufactured outrage.

It is despicable.

I hate Obamacare. I did not vote for President Obama either time. I also DO NOT LIKE LIES.

This graphic is a pack of lies. Beginning to end.

 

[arnisador]

I appreciate people taking the time to debunk crap like this, but it's sad that it has to be done again and again and again.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I appreciate people taking the time to debunk crap like this, but it's sad that it has to be done again and again and again.

It makes me upset. One cannot convert people to one's point of view by lying to them. They eventually figure it out, and that's the end of that.