James Miller
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FMA Pulse One on One: Interview with Presas Arnis GM "Datu Tim" Hartman of Presas Arnis pt.1/2
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FMA Pulse Interview with Presas Arnis GM "Datu Tim" Hartman pt 1
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James Miller
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Part 2
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Dan-
Here are the FMA Pulse interviews that I did this past August. You can listen to Kelly's interview on itunes. Look on the FMA Talk Live channel.
Here are the FMA Pulse interviews that I did this past August. You can listen to Kelly's interview on itunes. Look on the FMA Talk Live channel.
Hi Tim,
In the end of your 2nd interview you said you want to "set the record straight"
Well, I think you missed a few points.
What you described about Modern Arnis, Kombatan and Hinigaran Arnis de Mano is correct, when you see it only from the perspective of 2000 and later.
You said, Modern Arnis consists out of small circle jj, Tapi tapi, sinawali boxing drill etc.
Right, when you see it from the point of view of around the year 2000 plus minus 10 years.
You said you shook your head when somebody said, he learned Modern Arnis from Ernedto Presas. You said that is not Modern Arnis.
Well, I think you are not correct.
Let me explain why.
As you know, the Professor continuously learned and changed the system.
There never was "The" Modern Arnis"
There only was a Modern Arnis of Remy at a certain time.
According to the Professor he founded Moden Arnis in 1957.
So all people that learned from him at that time did not learn Modern Arnis according to you, because there was no small circle jj, to Tapi-Tapi etc.
No, there was not.
It was the Modern Arnis of GM Remy of that time, of the 50ies and 60ies.
The Professor taught first Roberto, later also Ernesto and Cristino Vasquez (from around 1964) and Rene Tongson who also learned under Roberto and Ernesto.
Do you say, they have not learned and trained Modern Arnis?
Jerry dela Cruz and Rodel Dagooc learned under the Professor from the end of the 60ies. They managed and kept GM Remys Dojo in Manila.
They have not learned Modern Arnis from GM Remy?
They all have learned the Modern Arnis of GM Remy of that time.
I have started to learn Modern Arnis in the Philippines 1983 after I began FMA under Cui Brocka, (an Ernesto, Roberto Presas and Cristino Vasquez student) in 1978.
It was Modern Arnis.
Not the Modern Arnis that you know now or that you have learned in the 80ies and 90ies from the Professor, no, but the Modern Arnis from the 70ies.
How do I know that?
Different reasons:
First of all, what I have learned there was almost 100% of the Modern Arnis of the pink book.
GM Remy's pink book. He even reprinted in and resold it in the US in the mid 90ies.
Was that not Modern Arnis???
I have trained in the 80ies with Rodel Dagooc, Willie Annang and Roland Dantes to name a few. All of them never trained under Ernesto, but under the Professor.
I have of course also trained a lot under Ernesto and Roberto Presas as well as under Cristino Vasquez and Rene Tongson.
Remember, Rodel got his 8th Dan Modern Arnis and Cristino his 9th Dan Modern Arnis from the Professor in 1999. So GM Remy must have regarded their Arnis still Modern Arnis.
I have talked with Rene Tongson about this and he confirmed to me, that what I have learned in the 80ies in the Philippines was still pretty much the original Remy Presas Modern Arnis from the 70ies.
I do not blame you for not knowing that. How could you. You were not there at that time.
But I was.
Wast that the same Modern Arnis you have started to learn in the 80ies? Problably not. Because that was already GM Remys Modern Arnis of the 80ies.
You met Ernesto and started to train with him around 2000.
What you saw and trained with him there was not the same thing that I have trained under Ernesto.
How do I know that?
Ernestos change from Modern Arnis via Mano Mano to Kombatan took place in the mid of the 90ies, when Remy did not allow Ernesto to use the name Modern Arnis any more.
When this happened, I was not training under Ernesto any more.
You are right, Kombatan is not Modern Arnis, especially today.
You are very right when you say, that Remy was clearly the senior to Ernesto (I don't recall your exact words, but that was the meaning).
Can't say anything about Hinogaran Arnis de Mano, for that develpped even later and I know not much about it.
But to say, that everybody that learned a Modern Arnis that had not the content of what you got to know as Modern Arnis has never learned Modern Arnis is just not correct.
I am lucky, that I have learned Modern Arnis from different phases of GM Remys life, especially his Modern Arnis from the 60ies/70ies and as well his latest Modern Arnis from the 90ies.
You were lucky, that you could learn from GM Remy for almost 16 years.
Did we both learn all the same techniques and concepts?
Surely not.
Did we both learn Modern Arnis
Absolutely.
These are my 2 cent.
Just "to set the record straight".
Greetings from Germany
GM Datu Dieter Knüttel
Modern Arnis
In the end of your 2nd interview you said you want to "set the record straight"
Well, I think you missed a few points.
What you described about Modern Arnis, Kombatan and Hinigaran Arnis de Mano is correct, when you see it only from the perspective of 2000 and later.
You said, Modern Arnis consists out of small circle jj, Tapi tapi, sinawali boxing drill etc.
Right, when you see it from the point of view of around the year 2000 plus minus 10 years.
You said you shook your head when somebody said, he learned Modern Arnis from Ernedto Presas. You said that is not Modern Arnis.
Well, I think you are not correct.
Let me explain why.
As you know, the Professor continuously learned and changed the system.
There never was "The" Modern Arnis"
There only was a Modern Arnis of Remy at a certain time.
According to the Professor he founded Moden Arnis in 1957.
So all people that learned from him at that time did not learn Modern Arnis according to you, because there was no small circle jj, to Tapi-Tapi etc.
No, there was not.
It was the Modern Arnis of GM Remy of that time, of the 50ies and 60ies.
The Professor taught first Roberto, later also Ernesto and Cristino Vasquez (from around 1964) and Rene Tongson who also learned under Roberto and Ernesto.
Do you say, they have not learned and trained Modern Arnis?
Jerry dela Cruz and Rodel Dagooc learned under the Professor from the end of the 60ies. They managed and kept GM Remys Dojo in Manila.
They have not learned Modern Arnis from GM Remy?
They all have learned the Modern Arnis of GM Remy of that time.
I have started to learn Modern Arnis in the Philippines 1983 after I began FMA under Cui Brocka, (an Ernesto, Roberto Presas and Cristino Vasquez student) in 1978.
It was Modern Arnis.
Not the Modern Arnis that you know now or that you have learned in the 80ies and 90ies from the Professor, no, but the Modern Arnis from the 70ies.
How do I know that?
Different reasons:
First of all, what I have learned there was almost 100% of the Modern Arnis of the pink book.
GM Remy's pink book. He even reprinted in and resold it in the US in the mid 90ies.
Was that not Modern Arnis???
I have trained in the 80ies with Rodel Dagooc, Willie Annang and Roland Dantes to name a few. All of them never trained under Ernesto, but under the Professor.
I have of course also trained a lot under Ernesto and Roberto Presas as well as under Cristino Vasquez and Rene Tongson.
Remember, Rodel got his 8th Dan Modern Arnis and Cristino his 9th Dan Modern Arnis from the Professor in 1999. So GM Remy must have regarded their Arnis still Modern Arnis.
I have talked with Rene Tongson about this and he confirmed to me, that what I have learned in the 80ies in the Philippines was still pretty much the original Remy Presas Modern Arnis from the 70ies.
I do not blame you for not knowing that. How could you. You were not there at that time.
But I was.
Wast that the same Modern Arnis you have started to learn in the 80ies? Problably not. Because that was already GM Remys Modern Arnis of the 80ies.
You met Ernesto and started to train with him around 2000.
What you saw and trained with him there was not the same thing that I have trained under Ernesto.
How do I know that?
Ernestos change from Modern Arnis via Mano Mano to Kombatan took place in the mid of the 90ies, when Remy did not allow Ernesto to use the name Modern Arnis any more.
When this happened, I was not training under Ernesto any more.
You are right, Kombatan is not Modern Arnis, especially today.
You are very right when you say, that Remy was clearly the senior to Ernesto (I don't recall your exact words, but that was the meaning).
Can't say anything about Hinogaran Arnis de Mano, for that develpped even later and I know not much about it.
But to say, that everybody that learned a Modern Arnis that had not the content of what you got to know as Modern Arnis has never learned Modern Arnis is just not correct.
I am lucky, that I have learned Modern Arnis from different phases of GM Remys life, especially his Modern Arnis from the 60ies/70ies and as well his latest Modern Arnis from the 90ies.
You were lucky, that you could learn from GM Remy for almost 16 years.
Did we both learn all the same techniques and concepts?
Surely not.
Did we both learn Modern Arnis
Absolutely.
These are my 2 cent.
Just "to set the record straight".
Greetings from Germany
GM Datu Dieter Knüttel
Modern Arnis
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Don't really have time to get into it now. Getting ready to leave for the Philippines Wednesday morning. You've made all good points and it is true that Remy went back to the islands and was training people. In the interview I was referring to one particular person. In my opinion this attached logo is incorrect. Well I have to go now. A lot of last minute things to do before my trip. Be back on the 10th.
Nice to hear that we are in agreement.
Ok, I was not sure if you were referring to me.
I do not know who you mean and if he learned from Ernesto after mid of the 90ies or so I agree with you.
Agreed, especially for is seems to be designed after Ernestos death because of the "legacy"
Have fun
where are you going there?
Greetings
Dieter
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Tim,
I’ve listened to both parts of the interview and for the most part, it was a good one. There are several points I do take issue with you about as I said I might in a private comm with you.
Interview Part 1 ~ 12 seconds into the interview
“My name is Tim Hartman, I am a senior student of the late Grandmaster Remy Presas and I was the highest ranked American and one of six people he promoted to the level of datu before he passed.”
Sorry, you are not the highest ranked American in Modern Arnis. There were several people who were ranked 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree or higher prior to your promotion. Your time/date seniority is way off.
~50 seconds into the interview
“About ‘84ish, 85ish…” I (joined a modern arnis school)
~7:12 into the interview
“by the time I was a brown belt…” (regarding leaving John Bryant and joining Prof. Remy as a personal student of his).
I met you when you were a brown belt and this was in 1987. My Lakan Tatlo (3[SUP]rd[/SUP] degree black belt) certificate is dated 3 July 1987. It was either in spring or summer when I was in Buffalo that year. I was a second or third degree black before you made your first black.
~9:22 into the interview (talking about Presas Arnis at this point)
“I was the highest tested black belt in the states…”
(This is from your reply to Kelly posted online)
“6[SUP]th[/SUP] Degree Promotion
Another issue seems to be about my 6th degree promotion and being awarded the title of Datu. I tested at the 2000 Michigan summer camp. Before the test, Prof. Remy offered to promote me without testing in front of several of my Black Belts. I told him no, I came to test. At the end of the test, Prof. made a speech in front of ALL of the campers. He said that my test was the highest one in over 17 years. He also said it made me the highest ranked Black Belt in the US. These were his words, not mine. This was also posted on the official IMAF website. You can verify this by following the link.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20001006212437/http://www.modernarnis.com/news.htm
Two points here. One – you have made a huge deal in the past re the fact that you were the only one who tested for 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree. It has sounded as if this has made it more valid than others who were promoted but not tested. That is how it has sounded to me and I will be the first one to admit it if I have taken it incorrectly. Generally speaking, there are four reasons for testing:
1.it is tradition in the school to test for every belt level including high dan ranks,
2.you travel to the central school and the head instructor doesn’t know you,
3.the main instructor in the school you’re training at really doesn’t know how good you are and he has to check you out. This can occur in a really large school where the bulk of the instruction is taught by lower ranked instructors, and
4.the test is a personal challenge
Re Modern Arnis, points 1, 2, & 3 do not apply. It was never a tradition to test for high rank. We never had a central school where RP made his headquarters. All of the seniors were taught hands-on by the founder himself. I have a very hard time thinking with the concept that the founder of the art doesn’t know what level a student is in his art within 30 seconds of working with him. Those of us who didn’t test didn’t need to. We were being watched and “felt” while training with him. That you were tested doesn’t mean a hill of beans in terms of seniority. In terms of personal challenge and in terms of the rank promotion itself, there is no question there.
Seniority wise, there are at least three people who were promoted to 6[SUP]th[/SUP] before you; me, Lee Lowery, and Jim Power. There may be more. I haven’t seen the certs. That being said, I am not going to make any kind of claim as to who is the highest American in Modern Arnis as ranks given out by RP were halted by his passing and we have all pretty much gone our own way.
You make a mistake in using Lisa McManus’ article as proof of what RP said as she does not quote him at all. She just makes the statement in the article. You shoot yourself in the foot (highest ranked statement wise) later in your interview when you say this:
~23:11
“I think some people misinterpreted what Prof’s meaning was. I think some people chose to misinterpret what Professor was saying. I can’t tell you who’s whom.”
That quote works both ways and with RP passed for over a decade, it will never be clarified to everybody’s satisfaction.
Your history is a little off as well.
Part 2 of the interview ~00:44
“That’s how Prof started. His father was teaching the guerillas. They had sheets separating the area so the men could train and the women are cooking, cleaning or whatever. Prof. looks through the sheets and he sees the guys doing the technique… Eventually they go to the graduation. He lines up. ‘What the hell are you doing here?’ ‘I’m here for graduation.’ ‘What?’ He demonstrates everything. His grandfather was so impressed he took him under his wing.”
This is not how he describes in a couple of interviews.
(from a video taped interview conducted by Joe Rebelo)
definition – Nipa Hut: The Bahay Kubo or Nipa Hut, is a type of stilt house indigenous to most of the lowland cultures of the Philippines.
Joe Rebelo – “How did you begin in the martial arts?”
Remy Presas – “I begin when I was 6 years old during the Japanese occupation in the Philippines. That was 1941. My father was a lieutenant in the guerilla movement.”
JR – “He introduced you to the various aspects of the Filipino martial arts?”
RP – “Not really. I was…little boy. I see my father train the army soldier(s). I open the nipa hut and I look at them. I try to see. They are doing something. The cane is moving left and right. I am fascinated. And later on they are doing, like the figure 8. When I see that I become more fascinated. I walk to the bush to the back of the hut and I cut the small cane. I do that (makes the motions of the banda y banda and the figure 8). I strike and all the leaves of the tree are gone. I do that and I practice by myself. And my grandfather find(s) out that I am doing this because…all the leaves…”
JR – “…are missing.” (both laughing)
RP – “I am doing this. It’s like, to me, this is natural. When my grandfather find out that I am doing that, he said, “Remy, I will train you.”
JR – “What was the base system that you learned?”
RP – “I learned the ocho, the figure 8 and the banda y banda because it’s very easy to learn.”
(from an interview done by Gaby Roloff in Germany, 1995)
RP – “My father used to train the soldier(s). Now I am only 6 years old, maybe 5 or 5 ½…and my father train the soldier. And children…in that time, they didn’t train children, only adults. And when I see them practice, I was left in the nipa hut…and they practice. And I looked at that and I loved it. Because my father will not teach me, I will practice outside by myself, also. Maybe one or two years I am doing that…”
Part 2 of the interview ~11:28
“And he called if Filipino karate. First of all, the art was eskrima. It wasn’t arnis. His first book was the practical art of eskrima.”
Look in the books themselves:
Modern Arnis Philippine Martial Art “Stick Fighting” (pink book) © 1974
The Practical Art of Eskrima “Text and photographs copyright 1976” First printing 1980
I do believe Kelly overreacted as (in my opinion) you were misquoted to him by another. That’s a tough break as things were going well since the Reunion Camp. All for now.
Yours,
Dan
I’ve listened to both parts of the interview and for the most part, it was a good one. There are several points I do take issue with you about as I said I might in a private comm with you.
Interview Part 1 ~ 12 seconds into the interview
“My name is Tim Hartman, I am a senior student of the late Grandmaster Remy Presas and I was the highest ranked American and one of six people he promoted to the level of datu before he passed.”
Sorry, you are not the highest ranked American in Modern Arnis. There were several people who were ranked 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree or higher prior to your promotion. Your time/date seniority is way off.
~50 seconds into the interview
“About ‘84ish, 85ish…” I (joined a modern arnis school)
~7:12 into the interview
“by the time I was a brown belt…” (regarding leaving John Bryant and joining Prof. Remy as a personal student of his).
I met you when you were a brown belt and this was in 1987. My Lakan Tatlo (3[SUP]rd[/SUP] degree black belt) certificate is dated 3 July 1987. It was either in spring or summer when I was in Buffalo that year. I was a second or third degree black before you made your first black.
~9:22 into the interview (talking about Presas Arnis at this point)
“I was the highest tested black belt in the states…”
(This is from your reply to Kelly posted online)
“6[SUP]th[/SUP] Degree Promotion
Another issue seems to be about my 6th degree promotion and being awarded the title of Datu. I tested at the 2000 Michigan summer camp. Before the test, Prof. Remy offered to promote me without testing in front of several of my Black Belts. I told him no, I came to test. At the end of the test, Prof. made a speech in front of ALL of the campers. He said that my test was the highest one in over 17 years. He also said it made me the highest ranked Black Belt in the US. These were his words, not mine. This was also posted on the official IMAF website. You can verify this by following the link.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20001006212437/http://www.modernarnis.com/news.htm
Two points here. One – you have made a huge deal in the past re the fact that you were the only one who tested for 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree. It has sounded as if this has made it more valid than others who were promoted but not tested. That is how it has sounded to me and I will be the first one to admit it if I have taken it incorrectly. Generally speaking, there are four reasons for testing:
1.it is tradition in the school to test for every belt level including high dan ranks,
2.you travel to the central school and the head instructor doesn’t know you,
3.the main instructor in the school you’re training at really doesn’t know how good you are and he has to check you out. This can occur in a really large school where the bulk of the instruction is taught by lower ranked instructors, and
4.the test is a personal challenge
Re Modern Arnis, points 1, 2, & 3 do not apply. It was never a tradition to test for high rank. We never had a central school where RP made his headquarters. All of the seniors were taught hands-on by the founder himself. I have a very hard time thinking with the concept that the founder of the art doesn’t know what level a student is in his art within 30 seconds of working with him. Those of us who didn’t test didn’t need to. We were being watched and “felt” while training with him. That you were tested doesn’t mean a hill of beans in terms of seniority. In terms of personal challenge and in terms of the rank promotion itself, there is no question there.
Seniority wise, there are at least three people who were promoted to 6[SUP]th[/SUP] before you; me, Lee Lowery, and Jim Power. There may be more. I haven’t seen the certs. That being said, I am not going to make any kind of claim as to who is the highest American in Modern Arnis as ranks given out by RP were halted by his passing and we have all pretty much gone our own way.
You make a mistake in using Lisa McManus’ article as proof of what RP said as she does not quote him at all. She just makes the statement in the article. You shoot yourself in the foot (highest ranked statement wise) later in your interview when you say this:
~23:11
“I think some people misinterpreted what Prof’s meaning was. I think some people chose to misinterpret what Professor was saying. I can’t tell you who’s whom.”
That quote works both ways and with RP passed for over a decade, it will never be clarified to everybody’s satisfaction.
Your history is a little off as well.
Part 2 of the interview ~00:44
“That’s how Prof started. His father was teaching the guerillas. They had sheets separating the area so the men could train and the women are cooking, cleaning or whatever. Prof. looks through the sheets and he sees the guys doing the technique… Eventually they go to the graduation. He lines up. ‘What the hell are you doing here?’ ‘I’m here for graduation.’ ‘What?’ He demonstrates everything. His grandfather was so impressed he took him under his wing.”
This is not how he describes in a couple of interviews.
(from a video taped interview conducted by Joe Rebelo)
definition – Nipa Hut: The Bahay Kubo or Nipa Hut, is a type of stilt house indigenous to most of the lowland cultures of the Philippines.
Joe Rebelo – “How did you begin in the martial arts?”
Remy Presas – “I begin when I was 6 years old during the Japanese occupation in the Philippines. That was 1941. My father was a lieutenant in the guerilla movement.”
JR – “He introduced you to the various aspects of the Filipino martial arts?”
RP – “Not really. I was…little boy. I see my father train the army soldier(s). I open the nipa hut and I look at them. I try to see. They are doing something. The cane is moving left and right. I am fascinated. And later on they are doing, like the figure 8. When I see that I become more fascinated. I walk to the bush to the back of the hut and I cut the small cane. I do that (makes the motions of the banda y banda and the figure 8). I strike and all the leaves of the tree are gone. I do that and I practice by myself. And my grandfather find(s) out that I am doing this because…all the leaves…”
JR – “…are missing.” (both laughing)
RP – “I am doing this. It’s like, to me, this is natural. When my grandfather find out that I am doing that, he said, “Remy, I will train you.”
JR – “What was the base system that you learned?”
RP – “I learned the ocho, the figure 8 and the banda y banda because it’s very easy to learn.”
(from an interview done by Gaby Roloff in Germany, 1995)
RP – “My father used to train the soldier(s). Now I am only 6 years old, maybe 5 or 5 ½…and my father train the soldier. And children…in that time, they didn’t train children, only adults. And when I see them practice, I was left in the nipa hut…and they practice. And I looked at that and I loved it. Because my father will not teach me, I will practice outside by myself, also. Maybe one or two years I am doing that…”
Part 2 of the interview ~11:28
“And he called if Filipino karate. First of all, the art was eskrima. It wasn’t arnis. His first book was the practical art of eskrima.”
Look in the books themselves:
Modern Arnis Philippine Martial Art “Stick Fighting” (pink book) © 1974
The Practical Art of Eskrima “Text and photographs copyright 1976” First printing 1980
I do believe Kelly overreacted as (in my opinion) you were misquoted to him by another. That’s a tough break as things were going well since the Reunion Camp. All for now.
Yours,
Dan
Dan, regarding Lisa's article on the old IMAF site, my understanding is that he did in fact say that. While I wasn't there, I have brought that up with a few who were there, and they verified it. From my understanding, most of the MOTTs were there, you might want to ask them. Of course, to settle that point either way, better yet, have them come here and either refute it or validate it. Then you don't have a bunch of people who weren't there doing the he-said/she-said feltercarb.
My 2c. Rest of the food fight I'll stay away from. Watching you guys argue these days is as painful as watching Gallagher.
My 2c. Rest of the food fight I'll stay away from. Watching you guys argue these days is as painful as watching Gallagher.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Bob,
I have no doubt RP said that. No good fight there. He said all sorts of things which now can't be clarified. Case in point: maybe he would it would not have said that if he didn't figure that I had retired. I found out three years after he died that he thought that. All the other facts remain fact.
Gallagher... ouch. =-O
DA
I have no doubt RP said that. No good fight there. He said all sorts of things which now can't be clarified. Case in point: maybe he would it would not have said that if he didn't figure that I had retired. I found out three years after he died that he thought that. All the other facts remain fact.
Gallagher... ouch. =-O
DA
My 2c. Rest of the food fight I'll stay away from. Watching you guys argue these days is as painful as watching Gallagher.
Hi Bob,
as for me it is not arguing in a negative way.
Just exchanging different points of views.
But also when Remy was still alive there were many discussions.
Why not discuss things now too, in a friendly way.
The discussions were very quiet in the last years in Modern Arnis.
But I agree with Dan that the Kelly - Tim "thing" is not good for Modern Arnis and throws us way back.
Friendly greetings
Dieter
Oh I've got no problem with you guys discussing things in a friendly light, wish more would happen in fact.
In the Philippines at the moment. More than happy to discuss this when I get back next week.
BuffaloFOI
White Belt
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2012
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 1
8 days, 8count
And your point would be?
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Probably that you've been back from the PI for 8 days, I suppose. I heard that the event up in Canada went well. Good cause to support.
Dan
Dan
It was great! Working on a review for it was well as my trips to Venezuela and the Philippines. Hoping to get everything done during the X-mas break. So back logged with work due to the trips as well, as the year end nonsense. These trips really kicked my butt this time!
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