Flow Drills or Sensitivity Drills?

[Si-Je]

Which do you focus more on, flow drills or sensitivity training?
I have one instructor who is very good with flow drills and loves to use them in chi sau, sparring and training.
Then another instructor who mainly works with sensitivity training, drills and such.
Personally, I see much value in both, but have noticed that Wing Chunners tend to favor either one or the other. And I wondered what your opinions were.

 

[ed-swckf]

Which do you focus more on, flow drills or sensitivity training?
I have one instructor who is very good with flow drills and loves to use them in chi sau, sparring and training.
Then another instructor who mainly works with sensitivity training, drills and such.
Personally, I see much value in both, but have noticed that Wing Chunners tend to favor either one or the other. And I wondered what your opinions were.

So which do you favour?

 

[Si-Je]

I've just started really learning flow drills, and sensitivity is something my instructor has stressed for a long time.
The flow drill helps me to "know" what to do next after I come in through sensitivity. What happens with me is that I feel the opportunity to strike and do so, then I kinda feel stuck sometimes and am not sure what to do next.
When my other instructor started showing me flow drills and using them with chi sau it became easier for me to continue with the next movements after I came in to attack using sensitivity.
Now, I really want to combine the two to stop halting and faultering in chi sau and light sparring.
Flow drills are more fun than sensitivity. Which frustrates me sometimes. Because I feel a chance to get through and sometimes just don't react as quickly as I want to, thus, missing my window of opportunity. My instructors give me opportunity to get in on a couple of occasions and I end up just standing there looking at them funny. Man! That frustrates me!
With the flow drills, they seem to make me move. And I feel that I have more of an idea of what I'm trying to accomplish when I feel a opening to get through. Maybe it just gives me a bit more confidence. My instructors really good. And I usually feel that when I do get in it isn't effective because he easily deflects it and flings me around the room. lol! and I feel like I didn't get in or my sensitivity was wrong.
When in reality it was right, I just didn't keep it up.

 

[Si-Je]

Okay, Sensitivity rules. To answer your question.
Flow drills are fun. But really do teach bad muscle memory.
I guess I'm pretty lucky. I've got two instructors who are very good and enjoy teaching me.
One likes the flow drills, the other (my hubbie) will only teach me sensitivity. He cringes everytime I play with flow drills. Which isn't very often.
Now I'm supposed to be working on my leg sensitivity. I'm looking forward to that. And working with anti-grappling, sensitivity on the ground. That's so much fun! Love that stuff! Now that I've recuperated from having the baby I can finally get to the ground work. But it's pretty hard since my core is totally weak.

 

[ed-swckf]

Okay, Sensitivity rules. To answer your question.
Flow drills are fun. But really do teach bad muscle memory.
I guess I'm pretty lucky. I've got two instructors who are very good and enjoy teaching me.
One likes the flow drills, the other (my hubbie) will only teach me sensitivity. He cringes everytime I play with flow drills. Which isn't very often.
Now I'm supposed to be working on my leg sensitivity. I'm looking forward to that. And working with anti-grappling, sensitivity on the ground. That's so much fun! Love that stuff! Now that I've recuperated from having the baby I can finally get to the ground work. But it's pretty hard since my core is totally weak.

Pole excercises generate good core strength.

I wouldn't rubbish a drill that is either designed to enable you to flow more or one that is designed to make one more sensitive. After all your aim is to be able to flow in accordance to sensitivity, based on that i don't really follow the notion of most wing chun practicioners favouring either one or the other.

 

[brothershaw]

I think people gravitate towards what they pick up more quickly. I have a harder time with sensitivity and need to work on it more,yet I do prefer flow drills or smooth automatic continuos reactions which do build sensitivity anyway.

 

[Si-Je]

Pole excercises generate good core strength.

What kind of pole excercises? That's a new one on me. Could you tell me more about these excersizes?

As for flow vs. sensitivity. I enjoy both and see value in both. Sensitivity is something that comes and goes with me sporatically and I need to work on it alot more.
Flow drills come to me more I think because their more fun to me. But I do agree you need both. Sensitivity gets you in, flow keeps you in.

 

[ed-swckf]

What kind of pole excercises? That's a new one on me. Could you tell me more about these excersizes?

As for flow vs. sensitivity. I enjoy both and see value in both. Sensitivity is something that comes and goes with me sporatically and I need to work on it alot more.
Flow drills come to me more I think because their more fun to me. But I do agree you need both. Sensitivity gets you in, flow keeps you in.

exercises influenced by the pole form, theres plenty in there. Its pretty straight forward to work on core strength however if you are in any doubt seek advice from your sifu or a professional. Also replacing your chair at your desk with a swiss ball is great for core strength.

Try ensuring all flow drills you do work from sensitivity.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

To answer your question, I will go into a bit into what "flow drills" and "sensitivity drills" are. This is because most drills in those categories, as mentioned, develop both attributes.

Flow drills, loosely defined, are cyclic sequences of movements that can be seen as a strategic attack pattern. The partners can do counter for counter until one is hit, or the cycle continues. YOu can change rhythm or strikes as to hit your partner. They tend to make the practitioners comfortable in such close quarter spaces.

Higher evolutions of these drills deal with higher degrees of pressure, power and force, so very strong fundamentals are vital to get to this point without collapsing to the pressure. MAny that do not go into this evolution of the exercises, when encountered with real pressure, tend to collapse, use extra force and loose their structure. This breaks the pattern.

Thus the flow drills have to be executed with maximal structure and verification that each movement holds maximal pressure with minimal effort.

Sensitivity drills have a similar execution, exccept that patterns are not set. It depends on intention, reaction, intuition and timing, among others. These parameters will direct the action-reaction-counter relations, thus it might seem that the practitioners flow from one movement to the other, the more spontaneous nature of the exercise produces more realistic stimuli.

Now comes the cool thing.

Higher levels of sensitivity develop perception-proaction-action-reaction-counter relations!! This means that intentions can be "felt" or "percieved" before or instantaneously preceeding physical action. Call it experience, or propioceptive conditioning, yet this phenomena occurs.

This permits a level of proficiency that allows easier control of attackers.

Note that the development of such skills requieres very prescise fundamentals training and strict application of these basic skills to the flow drills. Also note that Chi sao can be taught as small chunks of flow drills, with specific stimuli as triggers.

How where all of you taught Chi Sao? (I know it's an individual answer for each.)

Note that most of the statements I've written are easily demonstrable by qualified instructors.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado
Teaching Combat Sciences since 1995

 

[mantis]

IMHO sensetivity development is much more important than flow drills (although flow drills are extremely important). Flow drills allow you to act (or talk) vs. sensetivity which allows you to listen so you are able to react in the right way. Flow without sensetivity can be risky, but sensetivity without flow is not risky. it just knows that you dont know how to strike... my $0.02

 

[Si-Je]

Well, long time ago when I learned wing chun from a system that "borrowed" the style from another teacher and incorporated it into their Japanese style, we did nothing but flow drills. Another student studied on his own and we practiced for two years together these flow drills. They were fun, looked cool, and such. But, practiced in this manner it is completely impractical to a real fight. For your committed into action by pre-concieved notions so to speak. ex. pac, tan, pac sau the same straight punch before you return an attack. Too much movement, too much time. bad muscle memory in a real fight where the attacker doesn't leave their arm out there for you to finish your flow.

ten + years later I train with a teacher that instructs nothing but sensitivity. This totally baffled me, I thought I was fast with my hands, and had a pretty good start on wing chun. Wrong-o!
He spent alot of time deprogramming my muscle memory to teach me sensitivity. Then I started anticipating. Ack! more work.

Finally, I'm starting to feel like I'm beginning to understand sensitivity. But, as I told him, I think many people teach the flow drills wrong. Wrong in the sense, that that is all they focus on. Flow drills are good in short spurts, to help learn and teach muscle memory on what to do with certian pressure and how to re-direct without hesitation. I think that with sensitivity, flow can happen in a more improvised fashion.

Maybe because I think like a jazz musician at times when training martial arts. (I played Tenor Sax for 6 years)

You learn your scales, counting rythum, learn to read music, determine pitch and reconize tune and key. Your basics in music. Once this is mastered you improvise. Years later.
When you perform you don't play scales, you PLAY from the heart, improvise and rock. The same with martial arts. Drills shouldn't be confused with reality. Their drills. i.e. note scales.
When you fight, defend, or "play" you feel and decide then what is approprate for the situation at the time. A very hard thing to practice and teach.
Wing Chun is an improve class, it's Jazz. Exected with broken rythum, rapid striking, flollow up, timing, judgement, you break the "rules" of engagement.

lol! My instructor just told me I've probably lost everyone. It's just how I identify with sensitivity and wing chun.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Si-Je, I agree with your statements.

Notice that the "inserts" are supposed to be part of the evolution of the drill, after reference points, basic flow, rhythm, verification of properly executed fundamental movements (basics), postures, stances, options of control of opponent, entry opportunities, etc., etc., are developed.

Note also that these drills are preparatory exercises to develop certain attributes and "bridge" the gap between choreographed pattern learning tools and real full resistance applications.

Anyway I agree; in my trainings, breaking rhythm, trappings, finishes, cover outs, etc., etc. are part of the evolutions of the drills. They are the "challenge" and "stimuli" of the drill, which develops the flow and sensitivity attributes.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado
Working in the lab to develop "Human Kinesiological Applications to Combat Sciences" or "Combat Kinesiology"