Flag tribute to Pope sparks anger

[Sapper6]

of course this happened in France. could the same apply here in the states? there was a directive coming across in email today at work that all gov't and military offices, on-post and off-post, were to lower to half-mast until the Pope's interment. watcha think?

PARIS, April 4 (Reuters) - Politicians in secular France squabbled over whether the government had been right to order flags lowered on public buildings in a sign of respect for Pope John Paul.

Socialist senator Jean-Luc Melenchon and Yves Contassot, a senior Green party member on the Paris City Council, said the government had abused its powers on Monday by ordering the official tribute to the Pope, who died on Saturday.

The Unsa union said the government was guilty of double standards having ordered schools to take part in the tribute to a religious leader after banning Muslim headscarves in state schools in a drive to keep them firmly secular.

"Let the Christians pay tribute to the head of their church, it's a private matter," Contassot told France Inter radio.

"Today, we have a government and a head of state who, clearly, for political reasons, are trying to take advantage of an issue that is a private matter," he said.

Lowering of flags on all state buildings was "totally out of place and at the limit of legality."

Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin defended the government's move, saying the lowering of the flag was one of the "Republican customs" when a pope died.

"They have been applied at the occasion of the deaths of Pius XII, John XXIII and John Paul I," the interior ministry said in a statement.

Once so Catholic it was known as the "elder daughter of the Church", France has imposed a strict separation of church and state for 100 years to keep religion from provoking the bloody strife it sparked in previous centuries.

Millions of French are Roman Catholics, and there has been a public outpouring of grief over the Pope's death.

The row underscores the unpopular government's weakness as it struggles to convince hostile voters to back the European Union constitution in a referendum next month.

Socialist leader Francois Hollande said the government's reaction to the Pope's death had been "a bit excessive", but said: "This is not the time to have this type of debate".

Melenchon told Europe 1 radio the state was duty bound to observe a strict neutrality and that the flag tribute was a "favour awarded to one particular religion."

TRADITION

Cardinal Bernard Panafieu, Archbishop of Marseille, said he had "difficulty understanding" some of the reactions to the state's decision to lower French flags.

A spokesman for Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said France also ordered its flags lowered in 1991 on the death of Norway's King Olaf V and in 1989 when Japanese Emperor Hirohito died.

"It's a republican tradition ... that applies to heads of state in office with which France has special relations or is friendly," the official said.

"The Pope is head of the Catholic Church and head of the Vatican City State" and flags would again be at half mast on Friday when the Pontiff is buried. French President Jacques Chirac and his wife Bernadette are to attend the funeral.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Interesting.

First, the Pope is not the leader of all Christians, so I thought that was an odd comment to make, albeit in a highly Catholic country.

It's intriguing to me how different people running for political office who were Catholic were previously viewed as potentially "dangerous" because of their supposed allegiance to the Pope and Rome...but now US Gov't flags are at half-mast...? That would explain why our local post office flags have been lowered.

I don't know the protocol for the flag being lowered to half-mast, but I did not realize heads of churches warranted that - with all due respect to the Pope, who I hope will be honored with US representative presence at his services.

 

[Tgace]

We lower flags for almost any reason. Not lowering it for the Pope would be more of a political statement than lowering it would be IMO.

 

[raedyn]

with all due respect to the Pope, who I hope will be honored with US representative presence at his services.

Indeed he will. Representative numero uno. Your President plans to attend the funeral mass.

 

[Andrew Green]

Politicians trying to make a name for themself...

I'm not Catholic, not even Christian, and I got a few strong objections to the Catholic church as a organization, BUT the Pope is a rather influential and powerful leader in the world and I'd see nothing wrong with paying respect to that.

Of course I'd expect the same honors for any other big leader, regardless of religion or nationallity.

 

[raedyn]

I'm with Andrew Green on this one, I think. I have objections to some of the man's pronouncements, but he is an influential world leader. I expect the same gesture would be extended towards the loss of any world leader. So if they do this for the Pope, fine. But they'd better do it for the Dahli Lama (sp?) as well.

 

[raedyn]

However, I dispute the claim that it's just a politician trying to make a name for themselves. The linked article is about France. The political culture is VERY different there than it is in the US (or Canada). At least in the mainstream, there is a much less tolerance for politics based entirely on religious beliefs. In fact, America is an exception among western democracies for having religious influence so evident in daily political life.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have disagreed with a number of statements, positions, etc of the Catholic Church, and Pope John Paul II.

That said, the man was the head of one of the largest religious groups in the world, he was the head of state for the Vatican, which is a recognized indepentant nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

I think honoring him with flags at half mast is perfectly acceptable.
In fact, I had considered doing something similar here to what I did for President Reagan, however I have been too swamped to do it right.

He was not my pope, not my leader, but he was someone who I believe is worthy of being honored.

 

[Adept]

Would I lower my flag for him? No.

Would I expect others to lower their own flags? Thats their choice.

Would I be happy if my government lowered their flags for him? No, I don't think so. We don't make a habit out of lowering a flag when people die. Here it is reserved forvery special ocsasions. I don't thinkI've ever witnessed a government order to lower the flags of government buildings. Usually people just lower them themselves when they feel it is right.

Personally, I dont believe the pope warrants this treatment, but I can see how others would disagree with me.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm with Andrew Green on this one, I think. I have objections to some of the man's pronouncements, but he is an influential world leader.

I am? Gee thanks

 

[Dronak]

We lower flags for almost any reason. Not lowering it for the Pope would be more of a political statement than lowering it would be IMO.

I'm not sure about the first statement, but I'm guessing the second one is true, especially considering what a big deal Bush seems to make of his religion, morals, etc. But AFAIK, and that's probably not much in this area, US law doesn't make any specific declaration that flags must be flown at half-mast when religious leaders die. I don't have a really strong stance on this. I can see a reason for it, but I'm not so sure it's right to do so. *shrug* I hate politics and don't really like getting into religious discussions, so I generally try to stay about as neutral as possible on things like this.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have disagreed with a number of statements, positions, etc of the Catholic Church, and Pope John Paul II.

That said, the man was the head of one of the largest religious groups in the world, he was the head of state for the Vatican, which is a recognized indepentant nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

I think honoring him with flags at half mast is perfectly acceptable.
In fact, I had considered doing something similar here to what I did for President Reagan, however I have been too swamped to do it right.

He was not my pope, not my leader, but he was someone who I believe is worthy of being honored.

It is our custom to lower the flag for heads of state, ours or others when they die, to show respect.

Now if an individual or another country chooses otherwise then no big deal. but as some have stated, if the USA did not it would seem to be a bigger statement against it then doing it in the first place.

 

[Cruentus]

We lower flags for almost any reason. Not lowering it for the Pope would be more of a political statement than lowering it would be IMO.

That about sums it up.

Also, for those of you who are like, "I wouldn't lower my flag for him..."

Luckily we live in a country that is free, so if you don't want to lower your flag for anyone, I don't believe you have too.

 

[shesulsa]

Our country's flag is often displayed against regulation and protocol, unfortunately.

However, it is appropriate to lower the flag to half-staff for the Pope as he was the head of state of Vatican City:

In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law

Here is a reference for USA Flag protocol. Take a moment to read it - one may be enlightened.

 

[ginshun]

I'm not Catholic, not even Christian, and I got a few strong objections to the Catholic church as a organization, BUT the Pope is a rather influential and powerful leader in the world and I'd see nothing wrong with paying respect to that.

That about sums it up for me too.

Plus, like others have said, the Vatican City is recognized as a independent country, of which he is the leader. Seems to make sense to lower them.

 

[raedyn]

What about if it was the Dali Lama?

 

[shesulsa]

What about if it was the Dali Lama?

Wasn't the Dalai Lama the political AND religious head of Tibet? In that case we should honor him the same.

 

[ginshun]

What about if it was the Dali Lama?

I have no problem doing the same for the Dalai Lama. As far as I am concerned, he is pretty much the same as the Pope, albiet probably with a slightly smaller following.

Personally I am not a member of either of their religions, and I think that they are/were great men.

As far as being actual heads of state, I don't think that the Dalai Lama is techinically political leader of anything. Seeing as how Tibet is pretty much recognized as part of China. I could be wrong on that one though, I'd have to look into it to be sure.

 

[shesulsa]

As far as being actual heads of state, I don't think that the Dalai Lama is techinically political leader of anything. Seeing as how Tibet is pretty much recognized as part of China. I could be wrong on that one though, I'd have to look into it to be sure.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama was the political and spiritual head of Tibet before Tibet was invaded by China. Though ousted by hostile takeover, he would still qualify.

 

[ginshun]

Hmmm, after looking a little more, I am still not sure. He is head of state of Tibet, but is still in exile as far as I know. There is a plan for a government and everything, but I think that technically Tibet is still part of China. I suppose the question of whether or not he is head of state depends on whether or not the USA recognizes Tibet as its own country, or as part of China.

But enough with the Lama, sorry back to the Polish guy with the funny hat...


(sorry Catholics, no offence intended)