Five Animal Kenpo with Sijo Trevor Haines

[TaiChiTJ]

Found a kenpo site i had never heard of:

http://www.kenpodvd.com/

i think his background is Parker, but i am not sure.

any comments from the sizeable martialtalk kenpo community ?

 

[Mark Weiser]

I have spoken with him previously. He has been trained under Larry Tatum and is on his family Tree. I also have some of his videos. He currently as far as I know does not do any distance training or Testing.

Last I heard he moved to Tennesse and turned over operations over to one of his Senior BB in California.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Found a kenpo site i had never heard of:

http://www.kenpodvd.com/

i think his background is Parker, but i am not sure.

any comments from the sizeable martialtalk kenpo community ?

Yes, he was in my Judo class in college. At the time, mid 1980's, he was a senior brown belt in kenpo, taking both boxing and judo as P.E. electives, and was heavily involved in all aspects of the martial arts.

I cannot vouch for his style but I can say that he has many years in the martial arts and is a dedicated practioner. Haven't seen him in about fifteen years, though.

 

[Doc]

Found a kenpo site i had never heard of:

http://www.kenpodvd.com/

i think his background is Parker, but i am not sure.

any comments from the sizeable martialtalk kenpo community ?

I have never in my life seen so many people who think they're qualified to be the "founder" of their own art. I'm still trying to get a handle on someone else's. Of course when you establish your very own art, you can never be wrong. of course that don't make you right either. But then again he has promoted a lot more black belts than me .....

 

[Seabrook]

When someone has promoted tons and tons of black belts, I get weary. Either he's one heck of a good instructor with very low student turn-around and has been teaching for decades, or people seem to get their rank as fast as kids want candy.


IMHO - it's usually the latter.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Citius]

Much to address here in this post so here is goes:

I am currently a student at Trevor's school in Sacramento. He has 3 locations here. Many students have been under his instruction for over a decade. His current program requires about 4.5 years before you can even consider testing for a black belt. I have been going to his school since 1997.

He is considering a distance learning program and is currently in development of such a program. The program will require an annual pilgrimage to test in-person to attain certain ranks. There will also be a requirement to test by video for each rank. This is as good as one can expect from distance learning.

In today's modern world it is easy to provide vast amounts of knowledge and instruction to any corner of the globe. It would suffice to say that no distance learning program would be equivalent to in-person instruction. It also must be noted that most karate schools do not teach students to become "masters" of their art. Indeed most people take martial arts because they enjoy the discipline, excercise, self-defense skills and the spirituality of martial arts. It is also safe to assume that most students are not super atheletes who wish to acquire super human skills.

Many people take piano lessons but few expect to become another Mozart or Beethoven. With that said, it can be reasonable to assume that someone could become quite good at playing the piano or become a solid practitioner or martial arts through solid instruction even if the instruction is a distance learning program. You should also consider that each student who takes martial arts assigns the value of their rank accordingly. A student who buys a black belt online cannot hold in high regard such a rank. A student who commits to training for years, whether it is in-person or distance learning will hold in high regard any rank earned. Distance learning is an inevitable evolution of martial arts instruction and will not "dilute" the quality of the martial arts community but will increase the reach of the arts. If a person purchases a black belt online or out of a magazine that person does not take away from my achievements nor does it take away from my art. I assign value to my rank and my abilities. No one else.

As to the nature or Five Animal Kenpo I can say only this. I have taken traditional American Kenpo and now Five Animal Kenpo and to me there are subtle differences. Trevor is also a Wing Chun instructor and has incorporated many aspects into Five Animal Kenpo. Trevor has no intention of “improving” American Kenpo but introducing concepts from Wing Chun into his teachings. It is necessary to change the name from American Kenpo because the techniques are different and many aspects are different. Trevor is very qualified to “found” a new style because of his lifelong commitment to the art. In truth, there are no standards by which any person must meet to found a style. The measure of an instructor’s skill is based on the commitment of his students and their belief in their art. Trevor has the full spectrum of students with some being very highly skilled and others who take martial arts less seriously. I am somewhere in the middle. I enjoy his school and believe in his vision to produce instructional materials, which will outlive the instructor. Think of all the great lessons and magical teachings that vanished the days that Yip Man or Ed Parker died. Think of how those moments could have been preserved and past down through the ages, complete and unchanged forever. The digital age is upon us and the wisdom of today’s instructors can reach far and forever. You can criticize the medium but not the message. Intolerance is equivalent to ignorance.

 

[Doc]

Clearly in todays climate dam near everyone thinks they're qualified to found "their own system." This is a unique time in history where the knowledge available in one system transcends the amount of time available to learn it well.

There was a time in Parker's teaching when you could get a black belt in less than a year. As Parker became more and more knowledgeable in his various interpretations, the amount of information grew.

My point is simple; Everybody ain't an Ed Parker or Yip Man but think they are, and there's nothing we can do about it. They will continue to create these "systems" and we can only take them for what they are.

Lastly ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money whomever it is. I don't want to hear that crap about performing a service for "students who don't have a school nearby." That's absolutely laughable. I'll say it again, "If you can get "it" by video, "it" ain't very much.

 

[donald]

Citius,

Well said, well said. Sounds like Mr.Haines has an excellent back ground, and time will tell. I remember reading about Mr.Parker's trials early on. Sounded alot like the naysayers here. I wonder what aspects of A.K., Mr.Haines adopted into his system? Can you shed a little light on this subject?

By His Grace,
1st John 1:9

 

[SION]

One thing I know for sure, you will not get any of Doc`s material via a distance learning course.

If it is worth having it is worth traveling for, no matter how long it takes you.

KJM

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Trevor has no intention of “improving” American Kenpo but introducing concepts from Wing Chun into his teachings.
Very interesting.

I was surfing the web the other day and came across this "Black Dragon Kenpo" site. They are affiliated with the IKCA. I was scrolling down the technique list and lo and behold, there was a bunch of names I remember from my Wing Chun days, pak sao, etc. So they are doing it too.

http://www.bdkyo.com/association/

Bye the way, its a nicely constructed site with colors that are easy on the eyes. The last time I was on the official IKCA site it had that IMHO awful black background with red (i think) letters. I find it hard to read.

 

[Citius]

"ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money"

That is a very slanderous statement. You must think you are the wisest person on Earth to know the hearts and minds of every person who has charged a fee for martial arts instruction. Unless of course your madness proposes that in-person instruction for a fee is the act of a noble saint and distance learning by the same individual makes him/her a greedy scounderal. Your statement also persecutes most of the finest teachers this generation has to offer.

I fear your years of training and dedication in your art may have been in vain to produce such a intolerant mind.

 

[Doc]

"ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money"

If you're going to quote me, do it properly.

"Lastly ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money WHOMEVER it is. I don't want to hear that crap about performing a service for "students who don't have a school nearby." That's absolutely laughable. I'll say it again, "If you can get "it" by video, "it" ain't very much.

That is a very slanderous statement.

Apparently in addition to other deficiencies, you also are not a legal scholar.

You must think you are the wisest person on Earth to know the hearts and minds of every person who has charged a fee for martial arts instruction.

Charging a fee for martial arts instruction and giving belts by video are two different things.

Unless of course your madness proposes that in-person instruction for a fee is the act of a noble saint and distance learning by the same individual makes him/her a greedy scounderal.

You may consider me mad, but at least I had a credible teacher and waited until I was long past brown belt before I began to develop an opinion about things I knew nothing about.

Your statement also persecutes most of the finest teachers this generation has to offer.

I guess that depends on your definition of "... finest teachers ..."

I fear your years of training and dedication in your art may have been in vain to produce such a intolerant mind.

Interesting, but at least I have done the "... years of training and dedication ..." part you have yet to experience. Perhaps, all things considered, and the time I have put in, maybe you are the one with the intolerable mind. Either way you are entitled to your opinion just like any other brown belt in a style few people have heard of.

But you are right about one thing. I have no tolerance or political correctness answers for those who would be self-proclaimed geniuses, or those who would follow those who bastardize arts and become defacto "founders." Some individuals may indeed have merit in what they do and teach, and when I see it I will defintely acknowledge it. But don't become upset that you cannot sell me on the validity of what you have chosen to follow and the worth of your brown belt. I am not even remotely impressed, nor should you care whether I am or not.

What you have is the weight of your opinion, and I am saddled by mine. Some may find validity in yours, some mine. The difference is, I don't care what you think, nor am I impressed by your homemade brown belt. Every John Dow with the ability to fog a mirror has his own style. Most suck™. And although a couple may have merit, I'll play the odds and say they suck™ until proven different. After all, somebody has to stand up and tell the truth, even if it hurts some brown belts feelings because he took it personally. Me? if I thought what I was doing was the shizznit, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Hell, you may be right, but the odds say, "not a chance." And if you keep messing with me, I'll sic the Golden Dragon on you, and then you'll really be sorry.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

.... Most suck™. And although a couple may have merit, I'll play the odds and say they suck™ ...

:rofl:

 

[Citius]

DOC "somebody has to stand up and tell the truth"

Truth?

Clearly your blood pressure runs high. I do not require a black belt to identify an iconoclast. Forums and chat rooms abound aplenty with your kind. Admonishing everything. Praising little but one's own views. Thank you for your time. You have a good life and safe journey.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

DOC "somebody has to stand up and tell the truth"

Truth?

Clearly your blood pressure runs high. I do not require a black belt to identify an iconoclast. Forums and chat rooms abound aplenty with your kind. Admonishing everything. Praising little but one's own views. Thank you for your time. You have a good life and safe journey.

Sorry to burst your bubble there bub but I gotta go with Doc on this about Trevor. His lifelong committment to the art, big deal, I've done the same and I ain't runnin' around claiming CISOTIC Kenpo is my new art that's based on EPAK. I teach the base art, and go further for those that understand it. I've done many arts in these last 29 years, and analyzed to death, but it still isn't gonna be new and improved if you've learned Kenpo correctly. You know, I thought I knew Kenpo years ago and thought it needed to be improved, shame hindsight is 20/20

Trevor was good, one of the best Kenpoists I'd seen to date as I've trained with him. He had it, physically and mentally, but creating his own style, NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTT.

DarK LorD

 

[The Kai]

:rofl:

Ditto

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Young Master Trevor is "drinking water from two wells" as he has reached into Parker's Kenpo and then into WC, resulting in his self-created combo plan.

Valued testimony from others in this thread suggests he has indeed drank deeply from both wells, becoming talented in both arts.

Doc and other Kenpoists are "drinking deeply from one well", sticking to the concepts and principles of Parker's Kenpo, with certain enhancements and continuing development, finding all the depth they need with no compelling reason to mix with the waters from other "wells".

Is Trevor's system "better" ?
IMHO it is simply a development.

This reminds me a little of Chong's kung fu, where he is using Wing Chun's Chi Sao exercise to teach Bak Mei Kung Fu. Admittedly it is not exactly the same. Bak Mei is a southern system, and WC is a southern system so they are already somewhat close together, by country and by culture. Sifu Chong states clearly he only uses the two man paired Chi Sao exercise as an introduction to the Bak Mei self defense techniques. He has not altered Bak Mei.

If I read correctly Trevor has altered Kenpo's techniques. IMHO we must use caution down that path.

By what I have written above I mean no ill will towards any of the systems mentioned, or their practioners.

http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/sifu.htm

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

DOC "somebody has to stand up and tell the truth"

Truth?

Clearly your blood pressure runs high. I do not require a black belt to identify an iconoclast. Forums and chat rooms abound aplenty with your kind. Admonishing everything. Praising little but one's own views. Thank you for your time. You have a good life and safe journey.

Bubba, there are men on this forum who have been tops in kenpo since you were nigh but an itch in your daddy's pants. You might seek to avoid speaking of things of which you know not. Better to keep your mouth shut and let people THINK...

And while you're at it, take some critical thinking classes so that your future posts have some sense to them. Blasting da udder guy doesn't make a point; it just makes you look silly, since all you have to say is, well, something that blasts the udder guy. Does little to address the points raised -- directly or covertly -- in the arguments or positions you seek to address.

Additionally, if you plan on holding yourself out as a qualified authority on who the windbags are on a site, and who might really know their shiznit, then you should do some research to learn...um...who the windbags are, and who knows their biz. You might not like what some of these guys are saying, but several are better positioned to offer an informed opinion than thou. Some on these boards are iconoclasts. Some are icons, having "been there; done that" and know what skeletons were buried in which closets, well before you started your jouney in kenpo.

If you haven't reached the part in your training about discernment, you might request that your teacher gets there with you sooner, rather than later.

Regards,

D.

 

[Sapper6]

hhmmm....

i guess i can't blame Citius for getting defensive. this may be the only art this guy knows and you guys are slamming him for it. cut it out people.

i don't think virtual bullying is really necessary here. try resolving your issues via pm.

 

[Klondike93]

hhmmm....

i guess i can't blame Citius for getting defensive. this may be the only art this guy knows and you guys are slamming him for it. cut it out people.

i don't think virtual bullying is really necessary here. try resolving your issues via pm.

I heard that


:supcool: