First Western GrandMaster

[phlaw]

I found this on a website.

"In 1997 Chuck Norris became the first person in the Western Hemisphere to be awarded an 8th degree Black Belt, and title of Grand Master, in Tae Kwon Do. This honor was a first in the 4,500 years of tradition of the Korean martial arts."

I thought GrandMaster Sell was awarded before that?

Any ideas?

 

[rmclain]

I believe Grandmaster Sell was awarded the title by the ITF and CHuck Norris was awarded by the WTF. If this is the case, then could be he was the first to be awarded a "Grandmaster" title by the WTF.

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

I believe Grandmaster Sell was awarded the title by the ITF and CHuck Norris was awarded by the WTF. If this is the case, then could be he was the first to be awarded a "Grandmaster" title by the WTF.

R. McLain

I think your reference is to GM Chuck Serriff (sp?) being with the ITF. He's been their highest ranking American for a long time. GM Sell is WTF certified. As for Chuck Norris, I've never heard of him being involved with either organization.

Gosh, its hard to tell the players without a scorecard.

 

[rmclain]

I think your reference is to GM Chuck Serriff (sp?) being with the ITF. He's been their highest ranking American for a long time. GM Sell is WTF certified. As for Chuck Norris, I've never heard of him being involved with either organization.

Gosh, its hard to tell the players without a scorecard.

Oops! Yes, I did get them confused.

R. McLain

 

[Last Fearner]

I found this on a website.

"In 1997 Chuck Norris became the first person in the Western Hemisphere to be awarded an 8th degree Black Belt, and title of Grand Master, in Tae Kwon Do. This honor was a first in the 4,500 years of tradition of the Korean martial arts."

I thought GrandMaster Sell was awarded before that?

Any ideas?

The correct answer is Sr. Grandmaster Ed Sell. The official website of Grandmaster Chuck Norris says that he was the first in the Western Hemisphere to be awarded 8th degree in 1997, however Sr. GM Ed Sell was promoted to 8th Dan by the World Chung Do Kwan Association in Korea in 1987, and 8th Dan by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) in 1991 (both of these well before GM Chuck Norris). Sr. Grandmaster Sell received his 9th Dan from the World Chung Do Kwan Association in 1997, and became the first non-asian WTF Kukkiwon 9th Dan in 2001.

Here is the list of Grandmaster Sell's accomplishments from the U.S.C.D.K.A. website: http://www.uscdka.com/TheFounders.aspx

1960-67 - Instructor in Policemen's Combative Tactics.
1963 - First American ever to be allowed to compete in a Korean National Championship
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1966 - First American to receive the Taekwondo Certificate of Merit from the Korea Taekwondo Association for outstanding contribution in the promotion of Taekwondo to the US Military.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1966 - First American to receive a 4th Degree Black Belt, earning him the title of Highest Ranked Non-oriental in Taekwondo, (of which he still holds today.)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1966 - First American to receive the Master Instructor's diploma.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1967 - Formed his own national association, the US Chung Do Kwan Association currently sanctioned by the World Taekwondo Federation.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1969 - Developed the Instructors Degree certification system to motivate, properly train and certify American Taekwondo Instructors.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1969 - He is the author of America's first Taekwondo training manual.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1972 - First American to be awarded the appointment to International Master by the W.T.F.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1973 - He and his wife authored one of America's best selling textbooks Forces of Taekwondo, currently in it's 10th revised edition.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1973 - He was the Coach of the US Team in the 1st World Taekwondo Championship, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1973 - 1st World Taekwondo Championship his student, and brother Ray Sell took a bronze medal.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1974 - First American to receive International Referee Certification.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1976 - International Referee, 1st World Games-Seoul, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1981 - Founder of The Sell Team, an International Christian Demonstration Team.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1987 - 8th Degree Black Belt World Chung Do Kwan Association-Seoul, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1988 - Public Relations Committee 1988 Olympics-Seoul, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1988 - Featured on the cover of Taekwondo Times December Issue.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1991 - 8th Degree Black Belt certified by the World Taekwondo Federation (Kukkiwon).
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1997 - Featured on the cover of Tae Kwon Do Times.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1997 - 9th Degree Black Belt certified by the World Chung Do Kwan.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2001 - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Successfully passed the examination that proclaims him as the highest ranked Black Belt in the world in Taekwondo outside the Korean nationality![/FONT]

Respectfully,
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[terryl965]

I have a question how did the WTF promote him in 2001, the WTF does not promote anybody. The Kukkiwon does but the WTF does not please explain the outline if you can. Also 9th and 10th are honorary titles and not given by a test at the Kukkiwon and the time frame between 8th and 9th is eight years by the Kukkiwon website so how did he go from8th 1999 to 9th 2001 was he granted a special stay for this promotion.
I'm not trying to start a war just asking a question that is puzzleing by me.
Terry

 

[MSUTKD]

Actually, Sell did take the test at the Kukkiwon. I do not remember the details.

ron

 

[IcemanSK]

Actually, Sell did take the test at the Kukkiwon. I do not remember the details.

ron

The only detail I know is the date of his test at the Kukkiwon, September 11, 2001.

 

[terryl965]

Not saying he did'nt asking how come everybody is saying WTF they do not test there. And how did he go from 8th to 9th so quickly.
Thats all
Terry

 

[mystic warrior]

The correct answer is Sr. Grandmaster Ed Sell. The official website of Grandmaster Chuck Norris says that he was the first in the Western Hemisphere to be awarded 8th degree in 1997, however Sr. GM Ed Sell was promoted to 8th Dan by the World Chung Do Kwan Association in Korea in 1987, and 8th Dan by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) in 1991 (both of these well before GM Chuck Norris). Sr. Grandmaster Sell received his 9th Dan from the World Chung Do Kwan Association in 1997, and became the first non-asian WTF Kukkiwon 9th Dan in 2001.

Here is the list of Grandmaster Sell's accomplishments from the U.S.C.D.K.A. website: http://www.uscdka.com/TheFounders.aspx

1960-67 - Instructor in Policemen's Combative Tactics.
1963 - First American ever to be allowed to compete in a Korean National Championship
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1966 - First American to receive the Taekwondo Certificate of Merit from the Korea Taekwondo Association for outstanding contribution in the promotion of Taekwondo to the US Military.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1966 - First American to receive a 4th Degree Black Belt, earning him the title of Highest Ranked Non-oriental in Taekwondo, (of which he still holds today.)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1966 - First American to receive the Master Instructor's diploma.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1967 - Formed his own national association, the US Chung Do Kwan Association currently sanctioned by the World Taekwondo Federation.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1969 - Developed the Instructors Degree certification system to motivate, properly train and certify American Taekwondo Instructors.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1969 - He is the author of America's first Taekwondo training manual.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1972 - First American to be awarded the appointment to International Master by the W.T.F.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1973 - He and his wife authored one of America's best selling textbooks Forces of Taekwondo, currently in it's 10th revised edition.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1973 - He was the Coach of the US Team in the 1st World Taekwondo Championship, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1973 - 1st World Taekwondo Championship his student, and brother Ray Sell took a bronze medal.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1974 - First American to receive International Referee Certification.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1976 - International Referee, 1st World Games-Seoul, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1981 - Founder of The Sell Team, an International Christian Demonstration Team.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1987 - 8th Degree Black Belt World Chung Do Kwan Association-Seoul, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1988 - Public Relations Committee 1988 Olympics-Seoul, Korea.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1988 - Featured on the cover of Taekwondo Times December Issue.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1991 - 8th Degree Black Belt certified by the World Taekwondo Federation (Kukkiwon).
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1997 - Featured on the cover of Tae Kwon Do Times.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1997 - 9th Degree Black Belt certified by the World Chung Do Kwan.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2001 - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Successfully passed the examination that proclaims him as the highest ranked Black Belt in the world in Taekwondo outside the Korean nationality![/FONT]

Respectfully,
CM D. J. Eisenhart

Sorry boss your a bit off
http://www.michiganmartialarts.com/masterjohnson.html

 

[Miles]

Mystic Warrior,

The link to GM Johnson's site indicates his 8th dan from CMK (which I presume is Chang Moo Kwan) (1989) came after that of GM Sell's from the Chung Do Kwan (1987).

Miles

 

[Miles]

I have a question how did the WTF promote him in 2001, the WTF does not promote anybody. The Kukkiwon does but the WTF does not please explain the outline if you can. Also 9th and 10th are honorary titles and not given by a test at the Kukkiwon and the time frame between 8th and 9th is eight years by the Kukkiwon website so how did he go from8th 1999 to 9th 2001 was he granted a special stay for this promotion.
I'm not trying to start a war just asking a question that is puzzleing by me.
Terry

Terry,

GM Sell had 10 years between his Kukkiwon 8th and 9th dans. The time-in-grade between Kwan and Kukkiwon rank is not viewed (by the Kukkiwon) as having any consequence since the Kukkiwon does not recognize Kwan rank.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Ok Miles I understand but what about the WTF we all know they do not give rank, or is there someplace special for that.

In 1991 we was certified by the WTF(Kukkiwon) which one WTF does not certify anybody and WTF and Kukkiwon is two seperate identities.
Terry

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Ok Miles I understand but what about the WTF we all know they do not give rank, or is there someplace special for that.

In 1991 we was certified by the WTF(Kukkiwon) which one WTF does not certify anybody and WTF and Kukkiwon is two seperate identities.
Terry

I'm a little fuzzy on this (I've never had any association with the WTF), but I believe there was a brief period some time ago when they did issue their own dan certificates.

 

[Last Fearner]

Not saying he did'nt asking how come everybody is saying WTF they do not test there. And how did he go from 8th to 9th so quickly.
Thats all
Terry

Master Stoker - - I can appreciate you asking these questions and wanting to know the truth. With all the dates and Kwan info, it gets a bit confusing, however, as miles pointed out Kwan and Kukkiwon promotions are separate, but each of Sr. GM Sell's test dates are 10 years apart. Often times, Black Belts will have a higher degree in their own Kwan before they get the chance to test before the kukkiwan judges. This is mainly due to the fact that these people were high ranking masters (even certified in Korea) long before the Kukkiwon and W.T.F. were established.

Sr. Grandmaster Sell's two sets of promotions.

Chung Do Kwan in Korea......................Kukkiwon in Korea
8th Dan . . . . 1987 >>(3 years later)>> 8th Dan . . . . 1991
(10 years later) (10 years later)
9th Dan . . . . 1997 >>(3 years later)>> 9th Dan . . . . 2001

The 9th Dan test was taken at the Kukkiwon on Sept. 11, 2001, and is an official Kukkiwon Dan rank, but these ranks are also recognized and certified through the W.T.F. From what I am told, the K.T.A. only certifies ranks for citizens of Korea. To receive international recognition of your rank, you need the W.T.F. connection to the Kukkiwon (that's why the W.T.F. was created along with organizing sports - it's everyone else's link to the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon is a builiding, of course (the world headquarters), and the Dan certificates are certified by the W.T.F. through the Kukkiwon's authority.

I hope that helps clear up the confusion, Master Stoker.

Sorry boss your a bit off
http://www.michiganmartialarts.com/masterjohnson.html

Hi MW! :wavey:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by me being "a bit off." Perhaps you could be more specific! I'm always open to a correction of misinformation, or mistake on my part.

If you are referring to the timeline of who attained 8th or 9th Dan first, take a look at this.

Sr. Grandmaster Sell's website.....Master Marshall E. Johnson's website

4th Dan Chung Do Kwan - - 1966.....4th Dan Chang Moo Kwan - 1972 > > (6 years after Sr. GM Sell)
International Referee Cert.- 1974.....International Referee Cert.- 1977 > > (3 years after Sr. GM Sell)
8th Dan Chung Do Kwan - - 1987.....8th Dan Chang Moo Kwan - 1989 > > (2 years after Sr. GM Sell)
8th Dan WTF: Kukkiwon - - 1991.....X X
9th Dan Chung Do Kwan - - 1997.....9th Dan Chang Moo Kwan - 1994 ? ? (3 years Before Sr. GM Sell??)
9th Dan WTF: Kukkiwon - - 2001.....X X

I think it is interesting to note that Sr. Grandmaster Sell was ahead of each promotion until 9th Dan. Perhaps someone wanted the fame of being "First 9th Dan" even if it was only a Kwan rank?

Also, interesting to note the timeline of Master Johnson's early Chang Moo Kwan promotions: First one mentioned is 3rd Dan in 1972, One year later - 4th Dan in 1973, One year later - 5th Dan in 1974, Four years later - 6th Dan in 1978, and only four years later - 7th Dan in 1988. It took Master Johnson only 2 years to go from 3rd Dan to 5th Dan, and only 16 years to go from 3rd Dan to 7th Dan (Wow!) I've been training for 30 years in Taekwondo, and 41 years total in the Martial Art, and I'm 6th Dan, yet I have not sluffed off!

Master Johnson took a long Seven years to go from 7th Dan to 8th Dan, but less that FIVE years to go from 8th Dan to 9th Dan. I wonder what was the rush?

For everyone to consider, anyone could be promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by your own Kwan tomorrow! To make it official internationally, and recognized by the Korean authority for Taekwondo, you need to test at the Kukkiwon and receive a Kukkiwon Dan Certificate. A Kwan rank is only good within the Kwan.

Respectfully,
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[terryl965]

I'm a little fuzzy on this (I've never had any association with the WTF), but I believe there was a brief period some time ago when they did issue their own dan certificates.

The last time to my knowledge was in 1972 I believe.
Could be wrong though
Terry

 

[terryl965]

The 9th Dan test was taken at the Kukkiwon on Sept. 11, 2001, and is an official Kukkiwon Dan rank, but these ranks are also recognized and certified through the W.T.F. From what I am told, the K.T.A. only certifies ranks for citizens of Korea. To receive international recognition of your rank, you need the W.T.F. connection to the Kukkiwon (that's why the W.T.F. was created along with organizing sports - it's everyone else's link to the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon is a builiding, of course (the world headquarters), and the Dan certificates are certified by the W.T.F. through the Kukkiwon's authority.

I hope that helps clear up the confusion, Master Stoker.

Dear Sir I'm asking another question I promote my student though the Kukkiwon and no-where on the certificate does it make reference to the WTF, why is this? Next thing I'm new to the sport aspect only about five years now so my understanding is the WTF is all about the sport is this correct. Last thing so everybody is clear about this not questioning GM Sell himself a wonderful man and a great teacher I have had the priveledge to meet and very knowledgable in the Sport of TKD.
Thanks CM D. J. Eisenhart
Terry

 

[IcemanSK]

I need to correct my earlier statement. GM Sell tested for his 9th Dan at the Kukkiwon on Sept 10, 2001. (Not the 11th, as I previously said).

Master Stoker, I don't see your questions as being against GM Sell, or anyone else. (I say this as GM Sell's student). You're asking about why there's no mention of the WTF on a Kukkiwon Dan certificate. When does one stop & the other start? Sorry, but I don't know the answer.

I'll bet Miles would, tho.

 

[mystic warrior]

I was speaking more about the 9th dan.
And now a days with what has happened in the WTF.
I am sorry but I do not put much faith in them any more.

 

[Miles]

[/quote]The 9th Dan test was taken at the Kukkiwon on Sept. 11, 2001, and is an official Kukkiwon Dan rank, but these ranks are also recognized and certified through the W.T.F. [/quote]

The WTF only recognizes Kukkiwon ranks. So if there is a World Championship or Olympics, the WTF requires the competitors to be certified by the Kukkiwon. Kwan or school certificates and Kinko's certificates are not sufficient.

The WTF no longer issues rank certificates or master instructor certificates. I think it stopped in 1975 but would have to check on that.


[/quote]From what I am told, the K.T.A. only certifies ranks for citizens of Korea. To receive international recognition of your rank, you need the W.T.F. connection to the Kukkiwon (that's why the W.T.F. was created along with organizing sports - it's everyone else's link to the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon is a builiding, of course (the world headquarters), and the Dan certificates are certified by the W.T.F. through the Kukkiwon's authority.[/quote]

The KTA no longer certifies rank either though a few years ago there was a guy in Florida who was selling KTA rank. Long time practitioners (like GM Sell and my instructor) received KTA dan rank certificates and instructor certificates, but that was during the 60's. Non-Koreans had to be in Korea for at least 6 months, and that is how US Military personnel were ranked by the KTA.

Korean citizens test for and receive Kukkiwon rank, often at the Kukkiwon.

Sorry Mystic Warrior, I was only looking at the 8th dans of the individuals as that is the rank the Chuck Norris article mentioned.

Miles