Experience - what's it worth?

[Zero]

This query could go anywhere and is addressed to all really - it goes out to students like myself and trainers/instructors/seneis/sifus for both perspectives.

Just how important is it that those you are training with and particularly those training and teaching you have had real life experience in utilising techniques, the very techniques, combinations and self defence moves you are drilling in?

I guess it is a good thing from a societal point of view, really, but many teachers have never been faced with a real life mugging, SD situation or life and death struggle and yet many of us look to them for our skill sets and guidance for these very scenarios. Now I'm not expecting every teacher to have been in these situations - and often, yes, the fact that they have never been in an escalated SD situation is because they have the good sense and martial awareness to avoid or difuse them.

However, is it not better to be learning skills from someone who has fought and won national/international tournaments or is drawing on a background such as police/military training and combat experience rather than someone who themseleves has never had to put their skills and knowledge to the test? That's my question really and I'm not sure if I'm completely certain how I feel about it.

I trained a while back in wing chun, alongside karate, and while the sifu was actually renowned for his knowledge and wc skills he had never competed, never been in a serious fight and never had to act in a real sd situation. I am in no way coming down on him or wc (which I respect) but I never quite felt the stuff we were getting was entirely practical. As an opposite, until very recently one of my karate instructors has run his own security and bouncing companies, currently is a police officer in the court cells and escorts dangerous criminals, alongside street duty. Before all this he was an ex national heavy weight champion. Now with the instructions from this sensei it seemed as if all the chaf had been removed and you just trained in what worked and what had been proven to work for both fighting and SD.

I unfortuantely have been in a few street fights and SD situations and although my training held me in good stead, I have come to realise it is a world away from training bunkei or whatever in the dojo, even stress/reality training with armour on does not compare to when you're having to deal with some crazed SOB who cares nothing for your life (or his own for that matter) and is just interested in your wallet for his next crack fix.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Depends on what you are training for

 

[Sukerkin]

A well written and posited OP, Zero :tup:.

Brandon's reply, tho' short was also quite important as what you are seeking to achieve does indeed affect the direction you look to go with your art.

For example, my art involves the use of a three foot razor - not exactly a practical "for the streets" pursuit these days - but I get a huge amount from it when it comes to mental and emotional awareness and control.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Ok now that I got a couple minutes more. To me training for self-defense is a better option, you can always adjust to competition rules. But under pressure its better to not hessitate or pull your punches. Believe me I have been there and its a scary situation. Train to self-defense before competition and than adjust is myu suggestion.

Those that have had to deal with real life situations clearly have a different perspective than those that have not. I wish no one had to deal with it at all.

 

[jks9199]

There's a simple fact about experience.

There's no substitute for it -- but lots of people don't acquire knowledge out of their experiences. There are a lot people in a lot of professions out there with one year of experience, gained 20 times. There are fewer with 20 years of experience.

In terms of combative training, there's no substitute for realism. There's no substitute for someone who's been there and gotten the t-shirt. But there are a lot of people who have worked hard and gotten close enough to have a pretty good idea, and they know how to prepare you for it.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's an important point, jks.

'Teaching' is a skill in and of itself and quite a rare one too. Actual experience in the use of an art is, I think noone would deny, and is an absolute 'golden bonus' in an instructor. But if you can't teach then it does noone else but yourself any good.

I've encountered any number of people in my life who are better fighters than me and I acknowledge their superiority without rancour. I've met a tiny handful of people who could teach effectively - I'm sure you can guess how much greater respect they get.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Very true one who is good or great teacher will have alot more to give even with less experience than one who is not a good teacher.

 

[Topeng]

I am fortunate to be learning from someone who has real experience from the street. Its a bonus. Like Sukerkin said though, he can't teach it to me. What he can teach is the intensity needed for real life situations.
Now I myself do not have real fight experience (except for schoolyard days and 1 or 2 bar incidents). Nothing major or recent anyway of which all were prior to my training in MA. Someday when I become an instructor, I hope that potential students don't hold it against me that I have not used my MA training on the street. I'm not going to go start a fight to test it either. Not only is that stupid but my instructor would probably beat and banish me.
I think the best person to learn from is one who is "certified" to teach from a reputable source. I know that can be hard but a little research could benefit you in the long run.
We are very lucky. Our Guro learned directly from the current Grandmaster of the system. I will have to take the test in front of both my Guro and the Grandmaster. After that, my credentials would be hard to question. I don't mean to sound arrogant of the future but you have to ask yourself, will yours?

 

[Zero]

Thanks for the above response. To clarify, I'm happy with the competition side of things, I have competed for many years and train with those who have great previous records, it is mainly the self defence aspect I am concerned about.

My concern is that I am (and those others also training out there are)obtaining the right skills and mind set for dealing with street confrontations, life and death situations. And from the few real life experiences I have had I feel there is a big gulf often between what it is like and what some trainers are teaching. And sometimes you just cannot avoid a situation. The fights (brawls) I got into way back outside the ring where when I was a young somewhat aggressive/testosteroned fool (maybe not fool but I could have put a leash on the ego). But aside from that I have still found myself in a couple of situations, one that I could not have avoided, the other where I made a decision to get involved - it's these events I'd like to know that my training is going to hold me (and those I'm trying to protect or help) in good stead.

 

[Topeng]

Thanks for the above response. To clarify, I'm happy with the competition side of things, I have competed for many years and train with those who have great previous records, it is mainly the self defence aspect I am concerned about.

My concern is that I am (and those others also training out there are)obtaining the right skills and mind set for dealing with street confrontations, life and death situations.

It looks like you already have one up on some by knowing the difference between sport and real combat. There are people out there that think point fighting is the same as street fighting.
You could always ask your instructor the adjustments to make between combat and competition for different movements.
Though we train for street encounters, there are minor adjusments made like light strikes to vital points or thumbing the brow instead of the eye. Of course this is for safety but you can see how a street encounter utilizes the same overall movement.
I'm still just a student but from what I've learned, the biggest difference between what you do now and what you do on the street is simply intent.
What is your intent? To score a point or save your life? Intent will define your agressiveness, force, determination, and ultimately how the encounter will end.

 

[Explorer]

You may be able to take some comfort in what we know about people in high-stress, life & death situations. The ones to survive tend to be the ones who prepared in advance of the event. Any kind of preparation helped these folks through some very rough incidents. Those who hadn't prepared tended to die a lot.

The real statistics on assault are very interesting. Nearly any self protective action led to fewer injuries for the victim. The only action where the victim tended to receive more injury was when they tried to reason their way out of an assault. Now, it should be noted that these statistics are based on events where the assault was already underway. You can check in with the periodical 'Criminology' ... it was a Tark/Kleck study from 2004, I think.

It appears that having a more accurate mental map of the reality of self defense situations led to less injury for those under assault.

xo

 

[SageGhost83]

I would like to echo Brandon's sentiment - it all comes down to why you are doing it in the first place and what you ultimately want out of the arts. If you seek self defense on the streets then yes - I feel that it is very important that your instructor has actual experience and is able to impart his own knowledge and wisdom gained from such experience onto you so that your training will prepare you to deal with what actually goes on out there. However, if you are like Sukerkin and myself and you train for purposes other than self defense, then it is not so important - just as long as sensei has earned his rank through actual training in the dojo and is an honest and trustworthy teacher. I wouldn't expect a master of Medieval European swordsmanship to teach self defense for the streets, and I wouldn't expect a street brawling thug to be able to teach me authentic iaijutsu from feudal Japan and the exquisite Japanese etiquette contained therein. Know what you are looking for and where to find it. Don't judge one standard by another - An apple is not disgusting just because it doesn't taste like an orange.

 

[Zero]

SageGohost

You're right, dead right and I agree that, at least from my own humble experience, that being taught and training with those that have been in the fire is where you want to be if you're after survivla, real life applications.

I also agree that you need to know exactly what it is you want from MA if you are to optimally obtain your goals - problem is (and I bet many others out there are the/feel the same) I want several things out of my martial training - unquestionable ability to protect myself and those close to me in situations where there is even a glimmer of a chance of survivial, as well as competing in tournaments and enjoying the competitive and sport offerings, coupled with the interesting and sometimes life enhancing study of the more finer aspects of martial arts and thier historical/academic paths - and one day I guess I'll even be content in also applying more time to kata and zen meditation.

That's the mixed blessing and problem of many martial arts styles -so much to offer on so many different levels to so many different people!!

And thanks to everyone for your feedback here.

 

[terryl965]

My believe that real life stituation is vital but also real training is vital to everyday life. What I mean is hard sweating and bumps and bruises type training. If this is not being done then why train.

We do alot of competition without giving in to no SD principle we just adapt to the rules of each and every tournament sometime we win and alot of times we have a few get DQ for hitting target to hard and stuff. It all comes with a price. We must always find training to be suitable to our own very needs at those times.

 

[kailat]

Greeting's Imma chime in here... I strongly believe, that if your going to teach students how to properly use self defense, I feel you should have a "personal" understanding on what your doing. NO that does not mean winning state or national championships in a squared off ring, while throwing controlled punches and or kicks!! So, does that mean if you decide you want to be a martial arts teacher, one should run out and start getting in fights and putting themselves in harms way just to have validity in what they are doing? NO! well, not unless they can legal keep themselves out of trouble while doing that. But, either find yourself a job, a postion where you may be required to protect others and yourself. IE Military, Police Work.. Other sound more legal ways, and Im not all for this, but at least its closer than "POINT SPARRING", but the MMA, NHB type fighting. I've seen the ol' passed down self defense techniques that are so far fetched that John Wayne himself wouldn't of used them for the silver screen! And i sit back and scratch my head and think.. WOW what overkill, or over exagerrated SD line of crap.. If someone even attemped to use this stuff they would be picking themselves off the floor.

There is a catch 22. as a martial arts teacher.. MANY people who want to learn martial arts either comes to learn it for sport or for protection... its very seldom some come to learn for the mere survival of the art, at least not in the beginning... They develope that over time...

One should have a great understanding and survival instinct about fighting if your going to teach it and obligate yourself to be that teacher.

 

[kailat]

Greeting's Imma chime in here... I strongly believe, that if your going to teach students how to properly use self defense, I feel you should have a "personal" understanding on what your doing. NO that does not mean winning state or national championships in a squared off ring, while throwing controlled punches and or kicks!! So, does that mean if you decide you want to be a martial arts teacher, one should run out and start getting in fights and putting themselves in harms way just to have validity in what they are doing? NO! well, not unless they can legal keep themselves out of trouble while doing that. But, either find yourself a job, a postion where you may be required to protect others and yourself. IE Military, Police Work.. Other sound more legal ways, and Im not all for this, but at least its closer than "POINT SPARRING", but the MMA, NHB type fighting. I've seen the ol' passed down self defense techniques that are so far fetched that John Wayne himself wouldn't of used them for the silver screen! And i sit back and scratch my head and think.. WOW what overkill, or over exagerrated SD line of crap.. If someone even attemped to use this stuff they would be picking themselves off the floor.

There is a catch 22. as a martial arts teacher.. MANY people who want to learn martial arts either comes to learn it for sport or for protection... its very seldom some come to learn for the mere survival of the art, at least not in the beginning... They develope that over time...

Our civilization as a people in whole are changing compared to what it was say 30+yrs ago. With the economy being more stressful, and with more criminal activity going on as well as just immorality of today's cultures and civilization, we must maintain an awareness of these actions. What in the 70's and 80's or so the sport tournament scene was a big spectre of what martial arts was. With point karate, kickboxing, and those days its not as prevelent now as it once was. people are more interested in finding fame and glory in the octogan and MMA scene. So we need to realize this is becoming common practice not only for martial artist but for general public, thugs, criminals etc.. Back in the 70's and 80's everyone claimed to know karate.. now a days its MMA hystaria.. So to stay on top of the game you must train not only that mindset but above and beyond that mindset.. and what other is above that right now? COMBATIVES, STREET EFFECTIVE FIGHTING... You go throw a round kick or a heel kick nowadays to a MMA fighter he'll eat you alive comapred to 20yrs ago... U used soemthing like that in a fight you were considered SKILLED or TRAINED.. nowadays you better have a good arsenal of techniques to back that heel kick up before someone picks your body off the ground and pile drives you dead on your back.. And whats worse is if your still playin patty-cake in the dojo, those tech's will fail you in the real world... And your gonna have a quick evaluation of what you been training for, and ask yourself WHAT WENT WRONG!!!!!!! WHY DIDN"T all those hours in the dojo work for me? I done it just like SIFU or SENSEI said to do it.. and then you get the big eye open syndrome of OH!!!?? I was mislead.. and mis steeered to think that side step grab the arm throw a roundkick to the midsection would work! NOT!!