Evolution of the rules in Competitive Judo

[teekin]

Being new to Judo I promptly picked up a set of the current rules and read them. I do not clearly understand they are quite complicated/convoluted and open to interpretation.
In Randori, my opponent grabbed an arm and tried for an armbar. I defended so that he could not pressure the elbow but did not worry about the shoulder joint. To my supprise he just about tore my shoulder off. I did tap out but protested that this was illegal. His answer was "he attacked the arm, and arm locks were legal". His interpretation of the rules. As Randori has progressed I have become aware that the rules are being interpreted to allow for some very very nasty attacks that kinda contravine the rules..... sort of.
It was suggested by the head instructor that I reread the rules and see where I could use the rules to my advantage, not to break them but perhaps bend them a bit. I'm on the fence about doing this.
Is this how competitive Judo is played? I'll admit it seem the smart and logical way to go. Seems pretty damn cutthroat for being "the gentle way".
Lori

 

[zDom]

Seems pretty damn cutthroat for being "the gentle way".

The first time I saw GM Bong Yul Shin do a Yudo demo, I decided that "the gentle way" was a lousy (and/or ironic ) translation

 

[jarl]

Ude Garami, unwittingly referred to as a Kimora by the current BJJ folks after the late Judoka; Kimora, does indeed effect the shoulder more than the elbow. Use of this standing in randori is legal as it would be in shiai, however it would be a poor interpretation of the philosophy of Judo since while standing it would be simply about strength. Ju=gentle do=way jutsu= art or practice.
Judo as it is practiced and played is still much more gentle than its predecessors. Jigoro Kano developed Kodokan Judo to allow for practice of a martial art ( not yet sport ) at full speed, using all its techniques with little risk of injury, the times he lived in demanded it.
As violent as Judo looks to the layman or newcomer one should visualize the old Ju jutsu with nage waza ( throws ) followed by atemi waza ( strikes ) practiced to deal with a culture where your opponent might have a weapon that was perfectly legal for him to use while you had nothing.

 

[teekin]

Well the idea is that as you move in to competition, you must become less and less gentle. The competition version on O Soto Gari is a prime example. The new execution is brutal but oh so effective. There is no gentle, it fast and brutal. This is what wins, if winning counts to you.
lori

 

[zDom]

Honestly, I think "gentle" is a poor translation.

(And fwiw, this prefix is in both judo AND jujutsu .. the "-do" has nothing to do with gentle/non-gentle but rather a way of self-improvement vs combat techniques),

Someone with some Japanese language skills ought to chime in, but ju is more about "harmonizing" with the opponent/attack as opposed to meeting force with force (as in karate-style hard blocks).

 

[Andy Moynihan]

My take on it is that "Gentle" is meant as an axiom:

The art's chokes, armlocks, throws and atemi are anything but "Gentle" yet the art never espouses direct strength-against-strength action.

I also find it to be the "gentlest" way to combat effectiveness; it's hard on me( strength/cardio) without being *HARD* on me( risks of body/brain damage associated with any full contact striking art practiced at comparable speed with comparable frequency)

I'm partially hearing impaired and partially vision impaired and at some point got the bright idea that maybe years and years of kicks to the head would help neither condition%think%

 

[jarrod]

the prohibition against shoulder locks is sort of a grey area. if the lock could possibly be on the elbow it will most likely be called legal. in the case you described, your opponent attacked your elbow, & your defense shifted the pressure to your shoulder. if that were called illegal, then people would be winning matches by intentionally locking their own shoulders. it's kind of like the prohibition against throwing someone face first: you have to try to throw them on their back, but if they thrash around & land on their face that's their problem.

as for bending the rules...yeah, that's just sort of the way it is. you have to decide what you're willing to do to win. here are a couple of examples:

i was competing against a black belt who had notoriously poor newaza, & his coach was reffing the match. the coach told me point blank that he would be standing us up quickly when it went to the ground. everytime we hit the mat, the guy would pancake & we would be stood up before i had an opportunity to attack. after about the 3rd or 4th time this happened, i jumped on his back, crossfaced him to get his chin up (illegal) & choked for all i was worth. i really didn't feel too bad about it because i felt that the poor reffing forced me to take a shortcut.

another athlete that my coach previously worked with (though he didn't condone this at all) was working a choke on her opponent but not quite getting it. she tapped loudly on the mat herself where the ref couldn't see & the ref called the match, thinking the woman on bottom had tapped. this is certainly a "gentle way" (i.e., the easiest path to victory) but not one that i would use.

hope this has been helpful,

jf

 

[hpulley]

First, juudou/柔道 really refers to it being the soft, pliable, flexible way rather than just the gentle way but still, Kano's intent in developing judo was to avoid injuring his juujutsu/柔術 opponents so much that they had to leave training for 2-3 months after losing a tough match, though this was an improvement over matches from even earlier days where they almost always ended in death. Kano liked fighting his favorite opponents often so it was actually selfish of him as well as selfless to develop a sport which was safer. While judo on a non-judoka can be brutal or even lethal, especially if a throw is executed on a hard surface, once trained in break falls on proper tatami and with the tap out for locks and chokes judo is pretty safe. Most judo injuries that I see today are mistakes; people won't admit that they are beaten, they try to do something brave/stupid to 'save' their match instead of getting thrown for ippon and this means they don't break-fall properly which leads to injury as they try to twist their way out of a throw so as to land other than flat on their backs ending up with fractures and dislocations whenever it doesn't work.

This is similar to 合気道/aikidou which is called the way of matching/harmonizing energy with your opponent and with your weapon; it was also said to be a nice martial art but this is only because others at the time purely taught you to kill the opponent which is, really, the best policy in self defense. Any hesitation on your part is really a chance for your opponent to kill you so arts which attempt to subdue an opponent without killing them were and remain very merciful. At the time the best practioners would likely teach the fastest way to kill, blind, maim and hobble opponents in a second so simply slamming them onto the ground on their back was very gentle indeed.

For self defense judo is still bad for this reason. The quickest way to subdue an opponent uses moves which are completely illegal in sport judo today.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Never learned your atemi, your Kodokan Goshin Jutsu no kata or your Kime no kata I see.........

 

[hpulley]

No, I didn't learn them. I said atemi/strkes are illegal in sport judo so they don't teach them much when the emphasis is on competition. They don't even start to teach ju-no-kata until ikkyu/brown belt in Judo Canada and kime no kata until yondan... so most judoka here don't do this sort of stuff.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

No, I didn't learn them. I said atemi/strkes are illegal in sport judo so they don't teach them much when the emphasis is on competition. They don't even start to teach ju-no-kata until ikkyu/brown belt in Judo Canada and kime no kata until yondan... so most judoka here don't do this sort of stuff.

True.

But all of them are widely available on youtube now so that, if you can't perform them perfectly, you can still see how to use the principles you learned from sport judo and put them into practice for these other moves.

Then, too, it doesn't take much imagination to switch up a throw so that they land face first instead of back first, you need not change a thing during practice, all you need to change for self defense is the entry.

 

[hpulley]

If I could learn martial arts and self defense from youtube... well, let's just say I don't suggest trying to learn it from there! But I have already strayed too far from the original topic. Sorry about that...

 

[Andy Moynihan]

If I could learn martial arts and self defense from youtube... well, let's just say I don't suggest trying to learn it from there! But I have already strayed too far from the original topic. Sorry about that...

Partly my fault too. If we wanna talk this side of things we should either do a new thread( or search the old), or take it private. Sorry.