Electric Vehicles: The Coal Powered Car?

[Steve]

http://www.evtalk.org/453/episode-10-the-coal-powered-car/

Interesting article that outlines some of the problems with the argument that Electric Vehicles are as bad for the environment as gas engines because the electricity is derived from coal. While I agree with all of the points brought up, two are, I think, critical.

First, most of the electricity in America comes from sources other than coal.

Second, even if it all did come from coal, most people (including myself) consider energy independence to be the single most important reason for moving to EV. While domestic production of oil accounts for less than 40% of the oil used, ALL of our coal comes from within the USA.

Another point brought up is one I've mentioned before, that well to wheel consumption is specious. If you count the pollution used to create electricity for an EV, you would also have to consider the pollution used in the drilling and refinement of oil into gasoline. I think that if you did so, it would make driving an EV even more attractive.

Side note is that I appreciate that the author of the video is a proud, Republican from Texas.

 

[Empty Hands]

That may even be true right now, but coal doesn't HAVE to be our electricity source. We could move to other sources which do not have the same pollution concerns, like nuclear, solar, etc. It seems like this is an argument against our current electricity generation methods, not an argument against the electric car.

 

[elder999]

First, most of the electricity in America comes from sources other than coal.

While basically true, this statement is misleading. Coal is the fuel we are most dependent upon for electrical generation.

 

[Steve]

That may even be true right now, but coal doesn't HAVE to be our electricity source. We could move to other sources which do not have the same pollution concerns, like nuclear, solar, etc. It seems like this is an argument against our current electricity generation methods, not an argument against the electric car.

Exactly.

While basically true, this statement is misleading. Coal is the fuel we are most dependent upon for electrical generation.

I don't think it's misleading at all. Most of our electricity is created from sources other than coal. Certainly, i didn't intend for it to be misleading. I don't know how it can be said more clearly. If we're talking well to wheel energy consumption for an automobile, calling an EV a coal powered vehicle is what's misleading, IMO.

 

[Big Don]

While basically true, this statement is misleading. Coal is the fuel we are most dependent upon for electrical generation.

The graph shows "Hydro Electric conventional" is there such a beast as "Hydro Electric Unconventional?" If so, what the hell is that?

 

[Steve]

The graph shows "Hydro Electric conventional" is there such a beast as "Hydro Electric Unconventional?" If so, what the hell is that?

Conventional uses the pressure created by gravity as water flows through a dam.

Unconventional uses millions of hamsters on treadmills pumping water through tiny tubes. It's not as efficient.

FWIW, here's the DOE's report on hydroelectric production: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/hydroelec/hydroelec.html

And the DOE annual energy summary for 2009 (figured attached is from this link):
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html

 

[Big Don]

Conventional uses the pressure created by gravity as water flows through a dam.

Unconventional uses millions of hamsters on treadmills pumping water through tiny tubes. It's not as efficient.

:rofl::boing2:
Gee, thanks, Steve. Now, I don't think I want the real answer.

 

[crushing]

I think one of the advantages of centralizing the burning of the fuel (coal, natural gas, nuclear, etc.) for the electric cars is that it gives fewer points of pollution and hopefully better methods of managing, monitoring and scrubbing the pollutants that run the electric vehicles. Basically, instead of thousands of tiny power plants pumping out pollution, electric cars will give us one big-*** power plant to manage.

Maybe this could replace his reason #1? lol

 

[Steve]

interesting point. Another thing that occurred to me is that no one would give me crap if I bought a hot tub. That would consume about the same amount of energy as my electric car.

 

[Big Don]

interesting point. Another thing that occurred to me is that no one would give me crap if I bought a hot tub. That would consume about the same amount of energy as my electric car.

It would probably be more fun than the car...

 

[Steve]

It would probably be more fun than the car...

Probably so, but getting to work is important, too.

 

[SensibleManiac]

You can always work from your hot tub.

Either way, solar, wind and tidal power are almost untapped in North America, something to think about.

 

[elder999]

The graph shows "Hydro Electric conventional" is there such a beast as "Hydro Electric Unconventional?" If so, what the hell is that?

Pumped storage hydroelectric

 

[Big Don]

Pumped storage hydroelectric

Thank you, that was very interesting.

 

[Big Don]

Green Auto blog:
Well, Nissan never really reacted to GM's slightly misleading advertising campaign. That is, until Carlos Tavares, the automaker's executive vice-president of the Americas, spoke at the Automotive News World Congress in Detroit last week. Tavares held a muffler and tailpipe in the air and uttered these words:

As automakers, we have a duty to communicate with clarity to help customers understand today's technology. If you're calling your car electric, and it has one of these, you're only muddling the message.

​

 

[Steve]

Green Auto blog:
Well, Nissan never really reacted to GM's slightly misleading advertising campaign. That is, until Carlos Tavares, the automaker's executive vice-president of the Americas, spoke at the Automotive News World Congress in Detroit last week. Tavares held a muffler and tailpipe in the air and uttered these words:

​

Volt is technically what is called a "plug-in hybrid" that uses no gas at all for the first 25 or so miles driven. After that, the gas engine kicks on and it gets about 37 mpg, which is... just kind of okay.

So, the only problem I really have with the Volt is that it's not an EV, which is an important distinction if one of your primary motivations is energy independence. You're still burning refined oil that is in part purchased from other countries.

From a financial point of view, it's more expensive by several thousand dollars, and the cost savings from the EV are going to be entirely dependent on how far you drive each day. Total MPG = 37 x miles/(miles-25)

So, if you drive 25 miles each day, the EPA rates the car at 95 eMPG. If you drive:

50 miles per day, you're looking at around 74 MPG.
75 miles per day = ~56 MPG.
100 miles per day = ~ 49MPG.

And if you drive it through a full tank of gas (~ 300 miles), you'll get about 40 MPG.

IMO, all things considered, if range is an issue I'd take a serious look at a nice turbo diesel. In other words, I can get a nice VW for less money that gets better gas mileage than the Volt.

 

[Carol]

Turbodiesels, however, have challenges of their own.

American lawmakers have essentially categorized diesel fuel as that stuff that goes in big trucks.

Diesel subject to different regulations and availability than gasoline. In some places, buying diesel fuel may mean gassing up at a section of the station that is more out of the way and not as well lit, as it is more intended for route truckers that are not necessarily brought in by shiny lights and glossy signs.

On my mdnight commute home, I do not pass a single 24-hr establishment that sells diesel, yet I pass at least 4 that sell the three grades of gas. There are some towns, such as Newton, MA just outside Boston, where the sale of diesel fuel is statutorily prohibited all together:

http://www.newhampshiregasprices.com/GasPriceSearch.aspx?fuel=D&qsrch=Newton, MA


Diesel is more heavily taxed than gasoline, which means the consumer ends up paying taxes that are more intended for commercial vehicles. Here is an area where I frequently drive.

http://www.newhampshiregasprices.com/GasPriceSearch.aspx?fuel=A&qsrch=Hudson, NH

87 octane is 2.99 - 3.01, diesel is 3.49

Given the disparity in price, a gasoline car that gets 34-35 MPG will cost the consumer the same at the pump as the turbodiesel that gets 40 MPG, and without the inconvenience (and wasted fuel) of potentially having to drive around to fuel up.

 

[Steve]

Turbodiesels, however, have challenges of their own.

American lawmakers have essentially categorized diesel fuel as that stuff that goes in big trucks.

Diesel subject to different regulations and availability than gasoline. In some places, buying diesel fuel may mean gassing up at a section of the station that is more out of the way and not as well lit, as it is more intended for route truckers that are not necessarily brought in by shiny lights and glossy signs.

On my mdnight commute home, I do not pass a single 24-hr establishment that sells diesel, yet I pass at least 4 that sell the three grades of gas. There are some towns, such as Newton, MA just outside Boston, where the sale of diesel fuel is statutorily prohibited all together:

http://www.newhampshiregasprices.com/GasPriceSearch.aspx?fuel=D&qsrch=Newton, MA


Diesel is more heavily taxed than gasoline, which means the consumer ends up paying taxes that are more intended for commercial vehicles. Here is an area where I frequently drive.

http://www.newhampshiregasprices.com/GasPriceSearch.aspx?fuel=A&qsrch=Hudson, NH

87 octane is 2.99 - 3.01, diesel is 3.49

Given the disparity in price, a gasoline car that gets 34-35 MPG will cost the consumer the same at the pump as the turbodiesel that gets 40 MPG, and without the inconvenience (and wasted fuel) of potentially having to drive around to fuel up.

All good points. Diesel isn't difficult to find around here. As with all things, there isn't one single answer. As I have said before, what's interesting and exciting about current goings on is that things seem to be opening up. We have run essentially the same internal combustion engine for over 100 years even though we've had the technology and ability to mass produce any number of alternatives. Now, we're looking at hybrids, plug in hybrids, electric vehicles, diesels/bio-diesels, fuel cells and all sorts of other possibilities in addition to internal combustion. Pretty awesome.

 

[billc]

The current (no pun intended) administration isn't fond of coal.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/560155/201101181901/Obamas-War-On-Coal.htm

With restrictions on oil, coal and nuclear, is there enough energy potential from solar and other alternatives to meet our electricity needs?

 

[Blindside]

The graph shows "Hydro Electric conventional" is there such a beast as "Hydro Electric Unconventional?" If so, what the hell is that?

I am guessing wave and tidal power generators would fall in that category.