East Meets West

[Sukerkin]

I have seen a few such video's as this one about the web but this one is a pretty good one I think:

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My favourite part is when the JSA fellows drops into waki no kamae and the longsword wielder raises into what appears to be the WSA equivalent i.e. an overhead posture that invites attack. It's as if both of them were daring the other to make the first move .

 

[Tanaka]

I saw this a while ago. It is very good from both sides. It must be nice to have legitimate martial friends of different styles that are willing to do this with you.

 

[kegage]

I saw this one a while back also. The JSA guy definitely has the better technique, in my opinion, and adapts to what is presented before him better than the longsword guy. The JSA guy is also willing to commit to the attack more than the longsword guy, but that could be for a variety of differfent reasons. They both stay committed to the forms in which they have been trained. However, the whole thing, while interesting to watch, doesn’t really show much. They are both being extremely tentative in what they do, and for good reason. I saw several moments, on both sides, where they changed their attack I suspect this was due to a perceived safety issue on the part of the attacker. Of course, they could have just decided to use a different attack. There are obviously contact rules that inhibit both of them from not only pressing their attacks, but also from freely using their training. This is fine for what they are doing, but it also keeps them from using techniques that might have been used for fear of injuring their opponent.

I saw this a while ago. It is very good from both sides. It must be nice to have legitimate martial friends of different styles that are willing to do this with you.

And yes it is nice.

Kevin

 

[Ken Morgan]

Obviously I don’t think either of them where even remotely using their full abilities, yeah get hurt swinging lumber around!

I’d like to see the AEMMA folks and the Kendo guys go at it, armoured up and all, then we could see some real fun.

Realistically though, 95% of causalities on a Japanese battle field were not sword related, rocks, arrows, musket balls and spears made up the vast majority of causalities. I have no idea what western statistics were. I’m sure any of the above would have done nice damage to a western man at arms as well as to a Japanese warrior.

 

[kegage]

Depends on the time period and the type of armor, but yeah, the European battlefield had their share of that too.

Here’s a link that might give you an idea:

Not the greatest example. The longsword’s form is passable, and the katana’s hardly exists, but he is trying. That is, after all, what practice is for.

Kevin

 

[Sukerkin]

Depends on the time period and the type of armor

Just what I was going to say :lol:.

 

[kegage]

Realistically though, 95% of causalities on a Japanese battle field were not sword related, rocks, arrows, musket balls and spears made up the vast majority of causalities. I have no idea what western statistics were. I’m sure any of the above would have done nice damage to a western man at arms as well as to a Japanese warrior.

I dunno, let see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AonXGRfXaXQ&feature=related

And a couple of what it is like on the inside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsK2zuWuSMo&feature=related

Shieldcam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do5p78j89kY

I hereby apoligize in advance. I just couldn't resist.

Kevin

 

[Tanaka]

Where do events like that take place? I would like to come out and see.

 

[jks9199]

Check your nearest Society for Creative Anachronism group. They have regular activities of various scales.

 

[kegage]

Where do events like that take place? I would like to come out and see.

The video was made last year. It is Pennsic War and this year's war is happening right now. This war is at Cooper's Lake Campground near Butler and Slippery Rock PA. There are other wars like this, but smaller that happen throughout the year all over the country, and even smaller events all year long. It is a non-profit educational historical re-creation organization based in the middle ages.
I see you are in Raleigh, NC. The local group is called the Barony of Wndmasters Hill. Their website is http://windmastershill.org/. Most of them are probably at Pennsic right now, but they should be back next week. If there are any questions you may have, ask, and I will do my best to answer them. I have been in the SCA for 36 years, so I might have a clue.

Kevin

 

[billc]

Disease would have been the biggest killer I think. Heat exhaustion, and cardiac arrest?

 

[kegage]

Disease would often take out up to half an army before, and especially after a battle. Seiges were notorious for it, and it was not uncommon for disease to be used as an early form of biological warfare.
Heat exhaustion was a problem then, and can be now. We are constantly being reminded by our chirurgeons (volunteer medical people), and reminding each other, to hydrate, hydrate, hydrate, and watching each other for heat related symptoms to try and avoid those issues.
We have volunteers, called waterbearers, who interestingly enough, bear water on to the field for the fighters after the battles, and water and rest breaks during long battles. Many a invitation to marry has been garnered to the lass that brings forth water to the hot and weary warrior upon the field of battle who doth do war for the honor and glory of their crown and kingdom.

Kevin

 

[Langenschwert]

Not a bad vid overall. It's subdued due to the lack of gear and the relative inexperience of the fencers. I think the longsword guy does have some kendo experience due to the way he holds his middle guard, which should be held with the hands back by the hip, unlike Chudan. I suppose it could be Fiore's Posta Breve, but all his other stuff looked reasonably "German". Notice how he charges the cut from Breve, rather than strike directly from Vom Tag on the shoulder (Hasso in JSA) with a Schielhau to neutralize the threat of Chudan's point. If he's intending the guard to be Pflug instead, he should thrust with all speed as soon as he gets within range of JSA guy, while being aware of a possible exchange of thrusts to which he would vulneralble on entry.

But this is also a friendly match with no protective gear and wooden swords, and highlights the distortions that particular format brings to the matchup.

The over-reliance of the middle guard (Pflug, Breve, Chudan) in sparring is usually the mark of a beginner. While it feels safe because you have your sword in front of you, more experienced fencers often highlight guards with more offensive potential, such as Vom Tag (Hasso, Jodan) without neglecting the former. In Kendo, Chudan is very important due to the negligible weight of the Shinai, making more open guards harder to use effectively.

Incidentally should you ever spar a Kendoka with properly weighted weapons, Guards like Vom Tag and Tail (Hasso and Waki) are very nice to use. Very often Kendoka rely on Chudan to determine where the "one-step" distance is. Denying them that visual aid makes them prone to misjudging the range initially which you can then use to set up a good first strike.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[kegage]

Very nice analysis.

Kevin

 

[Langenschwert]

Very nice analysis.

Thanks!

A couple things I forgot to mention:

The Schielhau is a diagonal or vertical strike down with the back edge of the sword, so that your palm is towards you, as shown by the fencer on the left in this image: http://wiktenauer.com/w/images/9/95/Meyer_1560_schielhau.jpg

When using it to attack Pflug/Chudan/Breve, it is struck lower such that the point ends in front of the opponent's chest, closing off a possible thrust at the same time, often contacting the opponent's blade to control it. The angle and approach of the cut is such that it is very difficult (basically not worth trying) to bring one's point online against it.

Had the longsword fencer used that approach, the kenjutsuka would have had no end of troubles until he changed stances. Here's a video showing it in action, at about 2:40:

The actions that match the image linked above are found at about 2:17.

The "one-step" distance is called "Zufechten" in German, meaning "towards the fight". Closing that distance safely to hit or gain advantageous blade contact is one of the hallmarks of the German system. The basic idea is to close from Zufechten to Krieg (literally "war") which is the range of blade-to-blade contact, and if necessary to perform the Abzug (withdrawl) and start over. Ideally, one should not let the opponent disengage from blade contact without hitting him.

Best regards,

-Mark