E Sip Sa Bo and Oh Sip Sa Bo hyungs

[SahBumNimRush]

I am curious how many of the TSDers on here use the forms E Sip Sa Bo and/or Oh Sip Sa Bo in their dojang/association. We do not use these forms, and I recently found out that they are Okinawan/Japanese forms.

E Sip Sa Bo = Nijushiho/Niseishi

Oh Sip Sa Bo = Gojushiho

If you do perform these hyungs, how do you like them, and what in particular in application do you like about them?

 

[dancingalone]

I can't speak from the TSD perspective, but Niseishi was apparently a kata that Higashionna, Kanryo of Naha-te knew. His most famous student, Miyagi, Chojun, who founded Goju-ryu karate did not pass on this kata in his syllabus. However, certain passages of Niseishi are evocative of the Gekisai forms Miyagi designed for public education usage. For that reason, I think there's a more than decent chance that Miyagi had studied a version Niseishi at one point, and one could perhaps glean something from viewing examples of Gekisai bunkai if they are easier to find being considered basic kata.

 

[JWLuiza]

I have practiced both and love them. Ee Sip Sa Bo has great close-in fighting applications and Oh Sip Sa Bo has some fun throwing applications as well. Plus the wrist lock/trip/eye poke application.

 

[mattkulma]

I have never heard of E Sip Sa Bo. However, in the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan we do use Oh Sip Sa Bo and it is a 5th Dan Hyung. It looks very enjoyable to me and I can't wait to learn it when I get my Oh Dan.

 

[Makalakumu]

They are both very interesting forms. I consider these to be of the "number" form variety. Usually, number forms are more closely tied to naha-te systems of karate. I've always wondered if the numerology was meaningful. In my studies of karate, I would say naha-te is probably my weakest link. I'm thinking that since 54 is half of 108, it all has something to do with Buddhism.

 

[cdunn]

Our dojang teaches Ohsipsabo to people much higher rank than me. Can't really comment, therefore.

 

[DMcHenry]

I do these and enjoy them.

 

[Makalakumu]

Does anyone think that these two forms are related? Why?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Does anyone think that these two forms are related? Why?

I'm really not sure, but would be interested in knowing myself.. .

I do know that versions of these forms are practiced in Shotokan, and tracing back further several Okinawan styles practice versions of these forms too.

Ryuei Ryu, Okinawa Kenpo, Shorin Ryu (Kobayashi), and Bugeikan all practice Gojushiho (O Sip Sa Bo) and Niseishi (Nijushiho/ E Sip Sa Bo).

Given that atleast 4 lineages of Okinawan arts practice these forms, it is possible that they are of similar origin, but as I do not know these forms nor do I know much of these arts, I really cannot speak to their common origins.

Maybe someone else on here can shed some light on the subject. Perhaps Master McHenry?

 

[DMcHenry]

Sorry, don't know the history behind these forms. I remember reading up on them long ago but don't remember specifics.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here some info on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nijūshiho

Nijūshiho (二十四&#27497 (Japanese: Twenty four steps) is an advanced kata practiced in Shotokan karate.
The origin of Nijūshiho is unknown, but it is presumed that it originates from one of the Chinese "Dragon" styles. In introducing karate from Okinawa to Japan, Gichin Funakoshi changed the name of the kata from Niseishi to Nijūshiho. Both names mean "24 steps."
This kata is also practiced in Tang Soo Do and is called E Sip Sa Bo in Korean. Due to its difficulty, this kata is often reserved for advanced black belt level students. Like its Japanese and Okinawan counterparts E Sip Sa Bo also translates to “24 steps.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojushiho

Gojūshiho (五十四歩, lit. 54 steps[SUP]?[/SUP]) is a kata practiced in karate. In some styles of karate, there are two versions of this kata - Gojūshiho Shō and Gojūshiho Dai. An advantage of the two versions of the kata is to better master the difficult techniques presented therein, but not without facing some confusion, for many sequences are the same and others only slightly different. The embusen of both Gojūshiho Shō and Gojūshiho Dai are nearly identical. Gojūshiho Shō begins straight off with a wide variety of advanced techniques and, as such, is highly recommended for study. Gojūshiho Dai consists of many advanced open-handed techniques and attacks to the collar-bone.

Gojūshiho Shō and Gojūshiho Dai are two versions in Shotokan of the same, single Shōrin-ryū kata called Useishi (54) or Gojūshiho. Originally, the names were reversed so that Dai was called Shō, and Shō was called Dai. The name change seems to have happened sometime in the 1960s or 1970s when a high-ranking JKA instructor announced 'Gojūshiho Dai' and then performed Gojūshiho Shō at the All-Japan Karate Championships. Due to his high rank, nobody dared question him about this hence why all Shotokan Karate Schools who Originate from the JKA use the reversed names.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
Within the Shotokan Karate-dō International Federation of Kanazawa Hirokazu, the "Dai" and "Shō" forms are kept to their original names to coincide with 'Dai' meaning 'Major' and 'Sho' meaning Minor. This was also because master Kanazawa is a higher ranked instructor and refuses to change the original names.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] This kata is also practiced in Tang Soo Do and is called O Sip Sa Bo in Korean. Due to its difficulty, this kata is often reserved for advanced students, usually for those who are 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree black belts and above.[SUP][1][/SUP]

In Patrick McCarthy's version of the Bubishi, he relates this Gojushiho back to Chinese Kung Fu styles as well. It's implied that it's part of a Black Tiger style.

It would be really cool to see what these kung fu styles were really like. I think it's also important to understand that these kata might be whole styles in themselves.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

I learned both forms in JKA shotokan. WHen I moved to a new city, and changed styles to TSD, I found that many of the shotokan forms are found in TSD (well, WTSDA anyway), with mostly minor (and predictable style) variations. I do not think that WTSDA has E Sip Sah Bo, but it definitely has Oh Sip Sah Bo (Gojushiho Sho or Dai, depending on your organization). But in WTSDA, Oh Sip Sah Bo is restricted to 7th dan or 6th dan preparing to test. As a result, you will never see this form in competition, and frankly, becaus it is so rare, there is very little expertise and also some variation in how it is performed.

By the way, in JKA, for most kata usually the "Dai" ("major") form would be seen more than the "Sho" ("minor") version. Gojushiho is I think the exception, as the Sho form is more popular in competition and is considered an advanced form.

As to whether they are similar, I think not. However, they may (probably?) have both originated in Okinawa. I think that Gojushiho is more of the line heian/bassai/kanku, while Nijushiho is more similar to Tekki/Jitte (Naihanchi/SipSoo). In other words, what some might call Shuri-te and Naha-te, or Northern China vs Southern China, agile vs power, that kind of thing. The names sound similar, only because they describe "x number steps". In practice, they have very different feelings (at least in Shotokan, can't speak for other styles).

"...when a high-ranking JKA instructor announced 'Gojūshiho Dai' ..."

I always wondered how that Gojushiho Sho and Dai thing happened among the Japanese groups. If true, this is pretty funny. Even if of uncertain validity, it makes a very good story.

I like both forms, and especially Gojushiho. There is a great deal of expansion and contraction, gravity then speed, etc. As I said, an advanced form, long and quite beautiful when done by a good karateka. (I tend to like forms generally, for both the beauty of execution and the fighting applications within. But if a form seems lacking in practical applications, as some seem to, that's still Ok with me. Forms are traditional arts forms).

 

[Muwubu16858]

I can't speak from the TSD perspective, but Niseishi was apparently a kata that Higashionna, Kanryo of Naha-te knew. His most famous student, Miyagi, Chojun, who founded Goju-ryu karate did not pass on this kata in his syllabus. However, certain passages of Niseishi are evocative of the Gekisai forms Miyagi designed for public education usage. For that reason, I think there's a more than decent chance that Miyagi had studied a version Niseishi at one point, and one could perhaps glean something from viewing examples of Gekisai bunkai if they are easier to find being considered basic kata. posted by dancingalone

Who stated that Niseishi was a Higaonna form? Juhatsu Kiyoda, who was Miyagi Chojun's senior, stated that the only empty handed kata passed down from Higaonna Sensei were Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Pechurin(Suparimpei). Higaonna's first teacher, Aragaki, was the source of the Niseishi we have today, but its uncertain whether Higaonna ever learned this kata at all, since the details of his training with Aragaki Sensei are not known. Other well known Aragaki kata are Woon Soo(Unsu), Sochin and a version of Seisan.

 

[dancingalone]

Who stated that Niseishi was a Higaonna form?

It's mere speculation. I've participated in a few conversations over the years in person and online about it. It's one of the more common questions Goju-ryu people have when they start looking around at other systems, wondering why Goju-ryu does not have the all the Aragaki kata, including Niseishi. I'm inclined to believe that Higaonna did know and teach this one to Miyagi, but I admit I've come across no real documentation to show it, and the link between the Gekisai forms and Niseishi could come from a common Naha-te root rather than the Gekisai flowing directly frm Niseishi.

Juhatsu Kiyoda, who was Miyagi Chojun's senior, stated that the only empty handed kata passed down from Higaonna Sensei were Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Pechurin(Suparimpei). Higaonna's first teacher, Aragaki, was the source of the Niseishi we have today, but its uncertain whether Higaonna ever learned this kata at all, since the details of his training with Aragaki Sensei are not known. Other well known Aragaki kata are Woon Soo(Unsu), Sochin and a version of Seisan.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up what has been actually told and written down.