Drug companies lied about anti-depressent effectiveness

[Makalakumu]

Check out this link...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-01/ohs-sro011108.php

I would say that skepticism and cynicism has been completely vindicated and wholly warrented. I knew years ago that this sort of crap was going on and it was fundamental in my decision NOT to go to Med School. When I think about it, I could have been a practicing physician by now. I could have prescribed all of these drugs that are pushed and I would have had no idea just how effective they are. This is ********. This is crap. I am livid with righteous anger. We were lied to. Our doctors were lied to. All of this in order to make a buck. Corporations and people like this SUCK!

 

[shesulsa]

Exactly. And doctors wonder why people seek their own homeopathic, herbal and alternative health treatments and reject prophylaxis so often.

My ortho's office leave their trade journals on the table for all to read (though I think this has more to do with the fact that some of his patients are doctors). I remember distinctly seeing ads in these journals making the claims that prescription medication aided faster, more complete healing and pain reduction aided in rehabilitation. I remember the slogan most clearly: "Get them better. Prophylax."

Note: Prophylax means prescribe them drugs.

The even more dangerous piece to this puzzle is that western medicine is the science of treating symptoms - not treating causes.

Should you arrive at your doctor's office with, let's say, a sore throat, he will see you up to seven or eight times trying to help you relieve your sore throat pain. He'll prescribe painkillers for you before he'll do an x-ray or ultrasound. You could go a year or more before imaging takes place unless what ails you is related to an accident or fall.

Dietary treatment for disease and illness will never occur until you have something *terribly* wrong with you - when you develop blood pressure consistently high for a period of time they may advise you to stop using your salt shaker once your food has been prepared. When you go in with black toes, they will put you on insulin and send you to a dietitian to educate how your diabetic diet will go.

Take, for instance, this blurb on the ketogenic diet from wikipedia:

Johns Hopkins Hospital in 1998 reported that 50% of those patients starting the ketogenic diet reported a decrease in seizures of 50% or more, with 29% of patients reporting a 90% reduction in symptoms; these patients had previously tried an average of six anticonvulsant drugs.[9] The success rate on patients who responded to anticonvulsants was not measured in that study (and appears to be lacking in other recent studies as well - there appears to be reluctance to try the diet on subjects except as a last resort). The success rate of the diet on those who are successfully treated with anti-convulsants may be higher, lower, or the same as those who do not respond. It may be that the diet and anti-convulsants are effective on different segments of the population. This has continued to be the statistics today, with approximately half of patients having at least half of their seizures improve. The ketogenic diet has been reported to work in cases where multiple epilepsy drugs have failed. There may also be cases where the ketogenic diet has failed and epilepsy drugs succeeded. When one epilepsy drug fails, there is a high likelihood that other drugs will also fail. When the diet works, the response is often rapid and dramatic.[9]

Physicians will prescribe and prescribe and excise and excise - in fact, they would sooner perform a hemispherotomy (removal of half of the brain) than prescribe this diet.

My son is on an antidepressant and an antipsychotic. The latter has left him with new permanent nervous tics and even slower speech than he had before, but the medicine was crucial to managing his symptoms.

There are many things wrong with the overprescription of underproved medications. But I think several things have to happen to end this cyclic problem:

1. The medical education system as we know it must change syllabus to include education in dietary health, supplement therapy and some alternative medicines.

2. The drug industry must be opened wide to broad, independent study. The FDA need more staffing to review the plethora of medications now available and investigate research.

3. Treatment approach need be refocused on cause determination rather than symptom relief, and early intervention.

Once we focus on *really* doing no harm, early intervention by less expensive (monetary and health-wise) avenues can be pursued and perhaps fewer medical lawsuits will be on the books.

 

[Kacey]

Note: Prophylax means prescribe them drugs.

The even more dangerous piece to this puzzle is that western medicine is the science of treating symptoms - not treating causes.

Sad, but true... can you say "fen-phen"? I know you can... and so can a friend of mine, who was prescribed this combination, which was rushed through the approval process, before the dangerous cardiac side effects were known; luckily, she avoided them. She ended up at Weight Watchers - slower, more work, but much more effective (and cheaper).

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I research every drug prescribed and if I don't like what I see, I tell my doc "try again". SHe's often surprised at the amount of data I toss at her. I already informed her I'm not playing "lets see which pill doesn't **** you up", which is SOP in US managed care.

 

[shesulsa]

I research every drug prescribed and if I don't like what I see, I tell my doc "try again". SHe's often surprised at the amount of data I toss at her.

Good show. I do this too.

I already informed her I'm not playing "lets see which pill doesn't **** you up", which is SOP in US managed care.

Well put ... and recently experienced by my mother who was just about put on her death bed because of improper prescription.

 

[Cryozombie]

The even more dangerous piece to this puzzle is that western medicine is the science of treating symptoms - not treating causes.

There is no Money in providing a cure. If you came in to your Doc and said "Doc, I have a disease" and they had a cure for you, chances are you wouldnt get it, because its more profitable to to treat you for the disease than cure it.

I saw somthing recently on Discovery Channel about cover ups the big money makers use to keep making money... one of the things I remember was about March of Dimes getting Bee Venom therapy research stopped because it looked like a viable cure for... crap I don't remember now... whatever MOD was collecting money for...

I wish I could remember what the show was even called.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well put ... and recently experienced by my mother who was just about put on her death bed because of improper prescription.

That kind of **** up is similar to what killed my mom.

 

[BrandiJo]

I was almost killed as a child because of over prescribed medications. I was 10 i went in to the dr (my mom took me of course) this Dr admited me ( my normal Dr was out for some reason) and put me on 3 different antibiotics, storids (some breathing treatment) and sedated me. What he did NOT do was test me for anything he was trying to treat, he had it in his head that i had a sever upper respiratory infection and bronchitis and felt that if it was not treated it would be pneumonia(all well and good but you can test for each of those with an xray ). When my PA (she was the greatest person ever) came in and saw that we had no test results no xrays nothing she told my mom that she is unable to stop treatment as a Dr prescribed it but if she wants me to live she needs to get me off this medication and take me down to the ER for real treatment. It turns out i had a sinus infection and strept throat.

SO im not a big fan of Drs, and meds, and pills.... i like to do my homework first.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I research every drug prescribed and if I don't like what I see, I tell my doc "try again". SHe's often surprised at the amount of data I toss at her. I already informed her I'm not playing "lets see which pill doesn't **** you up", which is SOP in US managed care.

Good show. I do this too.


Well put ... and recently experienced by my mother who was just about put on her death bed because of improper prescription.

I have a good Doctor. He is a good Doctor because I am a good patient. I ask questions. I do not just let him come and go. I ask questions. I have him explain what and why and how of the situation.

Now, he starts the explanation as he knows I will ask. He also knows I do not prefer to be "Drugged" up. We have worked on natural over the counter prescriptions for a Gilbert's Syndrome that I have. I also did have to go on drugs for part of the side effects of the Gilbert's. We scheduled regular blood work to keep it monitored. To make sure that all the chemistry was in order. When it started to get out of normal in one area, he took more tests right away to confirm. Then we changed the treatment plan right then and there. At this time I am on a more natural treatment again as there have been improvements in knowledge. BTW he was the doctor that decided to work with me to find out why my Bilirubins were always out of normal. The follow up tests and doctors worked with him to determine the Gilbert's. I believe he did this as he cares but he also knows that if I had to pay to better understand a condition I was aware of he would work with me to educate me.

Education is a must. People will go buy Consumers Reports and talk to people about what car to buy. They will shop around and get a good deal on some new HD TV. But we all just pick a Doctor at random and then go and see them and take the pills they push.

Even with natural and homeopathic there can be side effects. Understanding them and being aware of them to decide if you "See" them and then bring them up to your doctor for discussion.

 

[Makalakumu]

How do we change this system? I feel really powerless right now because our government has been completely hijacked by private interests...right down to the counting of the votes. So, how do we change? The only thing I can think of is an outright rebellion. If people got real information and civilly disobayed en-masse how could they continue to shape policy so it lines their own pockets? Is that really a viable solution?

 

[Phoenix44]

OK, I'm ready for the flame.

I'm a doctor, and I am equally, if not more, angry about Big Pharma's lies and greed. And, I'm also a patient. Face it: a great deal of responsibility also rests with the public.

Don't you just hate those TV commercials that push drugs? Well, doctors didn't want them, and doctors fought against them--patients clamored for them. They wanted to "make a choice."

I'm a specialist, so most of my patients have already seen their primary care doctors before they come to me. I have to say that a good 70% of my adult patients are obese, hypertensive, and diabetic or borderline diabetic. Geez, they're all on the same meds!!! They eat too much, they eat crap, they smoke, and they don't exercise. That's not the doctor's fault either, and please PLEASE don't tell me the doctors want the patients to smoke and eat crap so they can earn a lot of money. That's just incredibly insulting. If I wanted a ton of money, I'd have gone corporate law instead of working in a clinic.

I treat patients with asthma and allergies. A MAJOR part of the treatment, ideally, is self monitoring and allergen control in the household.

Well, YOU try to get an obese person to eat right and start exercising. Weight Watchers? Quit smoking? OHMYGOD! Home peak flow monitoring for asthmatics? "No, I'd rather YOU test me." Give up your cat? Remove your wall-to-wall carpeting so your kid can breathe?

Never mind...just write me a prescription.

 

[kaizasosei]

That kind of **** up is similar to what killed my mom.

and my aunt too. strangely, a really sweet gentle person who chose to end it shortly after having had her medication changed.


i also had a pretty wild ride wrongly quiting once. after that i had to start again and wheened myself off slowly. last pill i took was july 2001. and the experience scared me ********. especially the final quiting, because i always wondered if the decrease in dosage might spark another 'darkness attack' although being on them was quite ok.

 

[JBrainard]

There have been a lot of good points made on this thread and I just wanted to throw my two cents in:
My rule of thumb (something I picked up from my mother-in-law who is an RN): Don't take any drug that hasn't been on the market for at least 5 years. It's all too common to find out that certain drugs have very bad long term side effects, after the drugs have been released to the public.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Drug companies lied about anti-depressent effectiveness

Not surprised...

 

[thardey]

OK, I'm ready for the flame.

I'm a doctor, and I am equally, if not more, angry about Big Pharma's lies and greed. And, I'm also a patient. Face it: a great deal of responsibility also rests with the public.

Don't you just hate those TV commercials that push drugs? Well, doctors didn't want them, and doctors fought against them--patients clamored for them. They wanted to "make a choice."

I'm a specialist, so most of my patients have already seen their primary care doctors before they come to me. I have to say that a good 70% of my adult patients are obese, hypertensive, and diabetic or borderline diabetic. Geez, they're all on the same meds!!! They eat too much, they eat crap, they smoke, and they don't exercise. That's not the doctor's fault either, and please PLEASE don't tell me the doctors want the patients to smoke and eat crap so they can earn a lot of money. That's just incredibly insulting. If I wanted a ton of money, I'd have gone corporate law instead of working in a clinic.

I treat patients with asthma and allergies. A MAJOR part of the treatment, ideally, is self monitoring and allergen control in the household.

Well, YOU try to get an obese person to eat right and start exercising. Weight Watchers? Quit smoking? OHMYGOD! Home peak flow monitoring for asthmatics? "No, I'd rather YOU test me." Give up your cat? Remove your wall-to-wall carpeting so your kid can breathe?

Never mind...just write me a prescription.

I see your point, and agree with it.

Our culture wants to be taken care of, and it's not the doctors who have pushed the drug companies to this point, it's the patients. The big Pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be able to make the money on this stuff, if people weren't willing to pay for it, or pressure the government into paying for it.

But just like Martial Arts, because there are some McDojo's who pander to the money, and who proved "easy answers" which aren't answers at all, doesn't mean it's the style that's to blame -- it's an unhealthy partnership between the customer and provider.

 

[Makalakumu]

OK, I'm ready for the flame.

I'm a doctor, and I am equally, if not more, angry about Big Pharma's lies and greed. And, I'm also a patient. Face it: a great deal of responsibility also rests with the public.

Don't you just hate those TV commercials that push drugs? Well, doctors didn't want them, and doctors fought against them--patients clamored for them. They wanted to "make a choice."

I'm a specialist, so most of my patients have already seen their primary care doctors before they come to me. I have to say that a good 70% of my adult patients are obese, hypertensive, and diabetic or borderline diabetic. Geez, they're all on the same meds!!! They eat too much, they eat crap, they smoke, and they don't exercise. That's not the doctor's fault either, and please PLEASE don't tell me the doctors want the patients to smoke and eat crap so they can earn a lot of money. That's just incredibly insulting. If I wanted a ton of money, I'd have gone corporate law instead of working in a clinic.

I treat patients with asthma and allergies. A MAJOR part of the treatment, ideally, is self monitoring and allergen control in the household.

Well, YOU try to get an obese person to eat right and start exercising. Weight Watchers? Quit smoking? OHMYGOD! Home peak flow monitoring for asthmatics? "No, I'd rather YOU test me." Give up your cat? Remove your wall-to-wall carpeting so your kid can breathe?

Never mind...just write me a prescription.

If anything, I think that this "research" is not really intended to dupe the public. It's aimed at the physician in order to get them to prescribe drugs they beleive are more effective then they actually are. There are some doctors that are in on this process, but those folks do not represent the norm.

 

[kaizasosei]

But just like Martial Arts, because there are some McDojo's who pander to the money, and who proved "easy answers" which aren't answers at all, doesn't mean it's the style that's to blame -- it's an unhealthy partnership between the customer and provider.

exactly. that is the most disturbing part. medication has been known to end up being bad..nothing new. how about that drug that caused all those birthdefects. it's so horrible people dont even want to bring it up. the damage here, if there is any, is that the truth is being purposely supressed.

an irresponsible or lighthearted attitude about helping people is not positive in my opinion. that's the only real tragedy.
can't help people for being gullible. i myself, told the shrink back in 2000, that i would never take the psychodrugs. i told him of all the crazy **** ive taken, and told him, i would still not take the stuff. he hounded me intensely telling me that my problems would not go away without taking the pills. i told him that no pills in the world can make my 'problems' go away. (telling him about my extracurricular strategies would not be a good idea)
.then at some point i got really annoyed and told him. 'enough is enough. ive told you so often i don't want to take the stuff.' he repeatedly restated himself. so then i asked him, ' should i take the pills, for you?'
to which he responded 'yes'
i couldnt help smiling at how stupid this insect thought i was.
i took the pills for something like 6 months until i had a truly hellish experience quiting cold turkey. like i said, i havent gone near anything like that since 2001

as for the therapist. he didn't really seem to get kicks outof my misery. didn't seem responsible either. alright i was stupid for stopping in such a way, but the creepy friend couldnt even manage to scold me for that.
i guess i wasnt a good enough patient after all. some other people i saw in his waitingroom seemed like they were a much better customers than me.



j

 

[Doc_Jude]

I see your point, and agree with it.

Our culture wants to be taken care of, and it's not the doctors who have pushed the drug companies to this point, it's the patients. The big Pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be able to make the money on this stuff, if people weren't willing to pay for it, or pressure the government into paying for it.

But just like Martial Arts, because there are some McDojo's who pander to the money, and who proved "easy answers" which aren't answers at all, doesn't mean it's the style that's to blame -- it's an unhealthy partnership between the customer and provider.

I can't believe that someone out there that believes that the egg came before the chicken (i.e. the sheeple gave birth to and generated market trends and "Big Brother"). Look at half of the drug commercials out there. Do I need the Purple Pill? I have no friggin' idea, but they're trying to sell it to me...

 

[MA-Caver]

Well they always do say: "Ask your doctor if Brand X is right for you." :idunno: what is the doc gonna say? But do you notice all the "don't takes if you're..." and they (sometimes) list side-effects? What are side-effects really? Umm, to me they're an effect of the drug. Duh!

I was prescribed Zoloft at one point. When I read the PDR Guide to Prescription Drugs I counted some 80 something side effects... (Prozac had over 164)... I didn't take ONE pill. The prescribing psychiatrist ... never knew (or cared) the difference. He was supposed to see me for at least 50 minutes each month... longest I think I sat in his office to talk to him (actually answer questions) was about... oh... 6 minutes?
What does THAT say?

But don't worry... I'm fine now...

(twitch)

 

[Jade Tigress]

I research every drug prescribed and if I don't like what I see, I tell my doc "try again". SHe's often surprised at the amount of data I toss at her. I already informed her I'm not playing "lets see which pill doesn't **** you up", which is SOP in US managed care.

I do this too Bob. I also research whatever it is I'm being treated for, educating myself as much as possible.

There is no Money in providing a cure. If you came in to your Doc and said "Doc, I have a disease" and they had a cure for you, chances are you wouldnt get it, because its more profitable to to treat you for the disease than cure it.

Isn't that the truth. Disgusting isn't it?

I also agree with Phoenix44, the majority of the public would rather have the "quick fix" of a pill.

I am currently on 2 medications. One I will have to be on for a lifetime, no questions asked. High Blood Pressure is hereditary in my family. Whenever I see a new doctor they are surprised at my blood pressure because I don't fit the bill for it. My grandmother died from massive stroke when she ran out of her hypertension medicine during a busy week. Said she'd get the new script filled Monday, she didn't make it that far, died on a Thursday.

The other I have been on for a few years and hope to be able to discontinue at some future point. As for now, it's better on it than off. This is also to treat something that alternative methods have failed to manage.

So granted, there are definitely instances in which prescription drugs are necessary and helpful, I'd probably be dead by now without mine, BUT, there is too much as Geo said, treating the symptom, not the cause, in Western medicine. And the pharmaceutical companies are what drive it.