Does your opponent make your defense?

[geezer]

One of the defining characteristics of the lineage I come from is that you strive to achieve a level where you let your opponent's attack literally create your defense. When it works, his energy actually bends and shapes your arms into the necessary defensive position. In my experience, this is not characteristic of most other groups of WC, even within other branches that also descend from Grandmaster Yip Man. I'm curious as to whether any of the rest of you also work toward this objective. With respect to this, I would loosely categorize WC groups into the categories listed below:

1. Those that prefer to use explosive force aggressively against an opponent. Even a "defensive" technique like bong-sau is launched explosively, backed by a solid structure, superior position, angle, etc. to overcome the opponent's attack.

2. Those that prefer a "softer", more yielding approach in which they seek to blend their energy with their opponent's and exploit his force to lead him to his own defeat ...almost like a very tight, efficient, linear, and pugilistic equivalent to something like Aikido.

3. Those, who like my tradition, seek to extend a sort of "springy energy" and let the opponent's energy bend and shape their arms into the appropriate defensive posture. Example: When you spring out to strike but encounter an opponent's heavy force crossing your arm, depending on the angle of interception, that opposing force will bend your arm over into a bong-sau, or press it into tan sau, or into jum sau, etc., etc. literally shaping the defense for you.

4. Those that think discussions like this are BS and just learn how to make their stuff work. Period.

As I said, The groups I've spent the majority of my time training with try to develop the "springy-energy" described in #3 above. I also have good friends who subscribe to the other approaches. I'm basically a "Big Tent" thinker on this. I've seen good people from different groups make their stuff work. In fact, when sparring, we all tend to end up in category #4. Still, I'd like to get your take on this. Opinions anyone?

 

[mograph]

I can't answer your question directly, but I like the way you describe techniques.

 

[WC_lun]

As my sifu would tell us, an attack is a question, and your defense is the answer. So it depends upon what question is asked as to what answers can be effeciently given.

 

[K-man]

Although I am not greatly versed in WC, I do practise a form of MA based on Kung Fu, although most styles have been modified so much that those links have all but disappeared.

I think that 2 and 3 are the descriptions that best fit my ideas and I find them mutually inclusive rather than exclusive. I would be interested in seeing anyone 'block' a strike using a technique that is taught as a block. I can only see that happening if you can anticipate the strike that is about to occur. Failing that, the response will reflexive and whether you yield and blend or meet with a 'springy energy' (or even just cover up to protect) will depend on your reflex reaction to any given unexpected attack. That becomes the springboard for your response.

So, to the original question .. "Does your opponent make your defense?" Answer of best fit .. it depends. For an unexpected or non-telegraphed strike .. big yes. For an anticipated or telegraphed attack you can do whatever you have trained to do.

 

[J W]

It could just be that my relative inexperience in Wing Chun keeps me from being able to see which of your categories my family's kung fu best fits into, but the answer right now seems to be 1, 2 and 3.

We do train to be aggresive on the attack, you know, as in the best defense is a good offense. So #1. However, when our attack meets an obstacle, we train to develop a high degree of sensitivty that will allow us to move around the obstacle by exploiting our opponents force, rather than using our own force. So #2. We also work to develop a constant forward energy (something I am currently struggling with), so that our defense (and offense) will be shaped by the situation in front of us. So #3.

Of course, I'll reiterate that I may not fully understand the question, since my kung fu is still so young. My answer may change as it develops.

 

[WingChunIan]

One of the defining characteristics of the lineage I come from is that you strive to achieve a level where you let your opponent's attack literally create your defense. When it works, his energy actually bends and shapes your arms into the necessary defensive position. In my experience, this is not characteristic of most other groups of WC, even within other branches that also descend from Grandmaster Yip Man. I'm curious as to whether any of the rest of you also work toward this objective. With respect to this, I would loosely categorize WC groups into the categories listed below:

1. Those that prefer to use explosive force aggressively against an opponent. Even a "defensive" technique like bong-sau is launched explosively, backed by a solid structure, superior position, angle, etc. to overcome the opponent's attack.

2. Those that prefer a "softer", more yielding approach in which they seek to blend their energy with their opponent's and exploit his force to lead him to his own defeat ...almost like a very tight, efficient, linear, and pugilistic equivalent to something like Aikido.

3. Those, who like my tradition, seek to extend a sort of "springy energy" and let the opponent's energy bend and shape their arms into the appropriate defensive posture. Example: When you spring out to strike but encounter an opponent's heavy force crossing your arm, depending on the angle of interception, that opposing force will bend your arm over into a bong-sau, or press it into tan sau, or into jum sau, etc., etc. literally shaping the defense for you.

4. Those that think discussions like this are BS and just learn how to make their stuff work. Period.

As I said, The groups I've spent the majority of my time training with try to develop the "springy-energy" described in #3 above. I also have good friends who subscribe to the other approaches. I'm basically a "Big Tent" thinker on this. I've seen good people from different groups make their stuff work. In fact, when sparring, we all tend to end up in category #4. Still, I'd like to get your take on this. Opinions anyone?

Why limit yourself to one approach? The straight blast approach is great if you can find the gaps and the yeilding method can help to find / create those gaps. Lut sao jik cheung or the sticky energy allows you to exploit the holes without having to withdraw and hence lose the opportunity. Learning to make your stuff work doesn't just happen through random trial and error, you need to have an understanding of what you are trying to acheive and how to get there before you go and test and refine.

 

[mook jong man]

Being that defence and attack are pretty much inseparable in Wing Chun , I'd say that he also helps to make your attack.

In our lineage we have techniques called "Chark Jong", it roughly means smashing defences , or what some people call entry techniques.
Basically it is penetrating the opponents guard to hit them , but done in such a way that their limbs are under control so that they cannot hit you.

A common one against a Wing Chun guard would be to use a double Tan Sau so that the opponents arms are trapped between both of yours , one or both your arms will strike through then you can lap Sau and elbow strike.

But it doesn't really matter what type of guard he presents , he could have one arm high and one arm low or whatever.

All we are doing is copying the positions of his elbows and using the appropriate Wing Chun shapes to get inside his defence and spread it apart like a wedge splitting a log.
Or in the case where he is already controlling the centerline we can collapse his angles from the outside.

But generally speaking , except in the case of someone's arms both being way off the centerline then our arm positions will be a mirror image of the opponents , so in this case he makes our defence and our attack.

 

[Eric_H]

I'm not Yip Man based, but our approach is more about interception and the guiding the opponent to what we call a "reference point." In layman's terms, that's a position where we have maximum leverage as defined by our "rule set."

From there, it's
A) the opponent has good structure, so you flow to a different reference point,
B) the opponent has bad structure, so you compromise it and not yours
c) You have bad structure, so recover to a spot where you have good structure.

To move the opponent to a reference point position it requires you to have the timing to apply bridge tracing to change his structure.

This means having a better structure so his breaks against yours, or crashing in to his bad structure, or flowing around his structure, or chopping his structure down, or neutralizing his good structure.

So I guess, I'd agree, while we choose our method of interception, the opponent shows us the way in.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Got some interesting answers!
Springy energy all the way woo!!

 

[wtxs]

you let your opponent's attack literally create your defense.

Nice post. Don't mind me add/change to what you said - "let you opponent's attack creates your defense and at the same time your counter attack", such as forward cutting jarm sau, pak sau, bong lap lan and others... things of endless drills we all had been doing.

 

[geezer]

From the majority of the responses so far, it seems that the concept of allowing your opponent's force to literally form your defense isn't widely stressed in most of your WC. (That doesn't mean you don't do it. Just that you don't describe what you do with those words!) It is, regardless, a central teaching of my old sifu and his "WT" system, and it continues to be a core concept in most of the groups that later branched off from his organization.

Apologies in advance. Words usually fail me when talking about WC, but I'll give this another try:

Imagine that you are in a the classic WC "ready position" or "pre-fighting posture" with a right man-sau or lead hand extended in front of you, and a left rear guard-hand or wu-sau held behind in front of your chest. Your training partner is facing you in the same position, also with a right lead, and your lead arm's "bridges" are crossed with the back of the wrists touching, and with each of you extending gentle forward pressure along the centerline toward the other persons chest.

Now imagine your partner converts his lead arm into a strong punch straight forward towards your chest. Several things can happen:

1. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, and if his energy crosses your centerline from your right to left, his force will roll your lead arm over to the left into a bong sau "like a log rolling over in water" ...that is, if you are relaxed, have "springy energy" directed forward and maintain your "stick" to his bridge. It is a natural mechanical action. His force bends and rolls your arm into bong sau. He makes your defense.

2. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, but his energy is wide of center, towards the right side of your chest or towards your right shoulder, then his force will bend and compress your man-sau/lead arm rolling the wrist to the right into tan sau ...again if you have loose, "springy energy" and maintain" stick. Once more, it's a simple mechanical action resulting in tan-sau, and, voila, he makes your defense.

3. If his punch is high, toward the face, with a light elbow and breaking stick, it will now release your man-sau which will spring forward into a punch. As your "springy" arm snaps straight, it will deflect his punch (and posibly hit him as well). When he releases your spring-loaded arm, he initiates a simple mechanical action causing the classic punch against punch deflection. Again, he makes your defense.

In the WC groups that share "WT" roots, being able to let go of our own strength, to become so springy and responsive that we can use our opponent's energy to literally, mechanically make our defenses is perhaps the highest goal, and this is our interpretation of the famous kuen kuit: Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. Stay with what comes, follow the retreat, thrust forward when the hand is free ... or more simply, Become a spring.

 

[Vajramusti]

From the majority of the responses so far, it seems that the concept of allowing your opponent's force to literally form your defense isn't widely stressed in most of your WC. (That doesn't mean you don't do it. Just that you don't describe what you do with those words!) It is, regardless, a central teaching of my old sifu and his "WT" system, and it continues to be a core concept in most of the groups that later branched off from his organization.

Apologies in advance. Words usually fail me when talking about WC, but I'll give this another try:

Imagine that you are in a the classic WC "ready position" or "pre-fighting posture" with a right man-sau or lead hand extended in front of you, and a left rear guard-hand or wu-sau held behind in front of your chest. Your training partner is facing you in the same position, also with a right lead, and your lead arm's "bridges" are crossed with the back of the wrists touching, and with each of you extending gentle forward pressure along the centerline toward the other persons chest.

Now imagine your partner converts his lead arm into a strong punch straight forward towards your chest. Several things can happen:

1. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, and if his energy crosses your centerline from your right to left, his force will roll your lead arm over to the left into a bong sau "like a log rolling over in water" ...that is, if you are relaxed, have "springy energy" directed forward and maintain your "stick" to his bridge. It is a natural mechanical action. His force bends and rolls your arm into bong sau. He makes your defense.

2. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, but his energy is wide of center, towards the right side of your chest or towards your right shoulder, then his force will bend and compress your man-sau/lead arm rolling the wrist to the right into tan sau ...again if you have loose, "springy energy" and maintain" stick. Once more, it's a simple mechanical action resulting in tan-sau, and, voila, he makes your defense.

3. If his punch is high, toward the face, with a light elbow and breaking stick, it will now release your man-sau which will spring forward into a punch. As your "springy" arm snaps straight, it will deflect his punch (and posibly hit him as well). When he releases your spring-loaded arm, he initiates a simple mechanical action causing the classic punch against punch deflection. Again, he makes your defense.

In the WC groups that share "WT" roots, being able to let go of our own strength, to become so springy and responsive that we can use our opponent's energy to literally, mechanically make our defenses is perhaps the highest goal, and this is our interpretation of the famous kuen kuit: Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. Stay with what comes, follow the retreat, thrust forward when the hand is free ... or more simply, Become a spring.

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Understand those alternatives---- but they are a few important variables that can be involved...including timing,distance etc. In some contexts a different kuit can be relevant-
"you"(generic) start first, I arrive earlier. But yes even there- your opponent shows you the way.

 

[geezer]

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Understand those alternatives---- but they are a few important variables that can be involved...including timing,distance etc. In some contexts a different kuit can be relevant-
"you"(generic) start first, I arrive earlier. But yes even there- your opponent shows you the way.

Well said, Joy. You have a gift for saying a lot with few words.

 

[mook jong man]

From the majority of the responses so far, it seems that the concept of allowing your opponent's force to literally form your defense isn't widely stressed in most of your WC. (That doesn't mean you don't do it. Just that you don't describe what you do with those words!) It is, regardless, a central teaching of my old sifu and his "WT" system, and it continues to be a core concept in most of the groups that later branched off from his organization.

Apologies in advance. Words usually fail me when talking about WC, but I'll give this another try:

Imagine that you are in a the classic WC "ready position" or "pre-fighting posture" with a right man-sau or lead hand extended in front of you, and a left rear guard-hand or wu-sau held behind in front of your chest. Your training partner is facing you in the same position, also with a right lead, and your lead arm's "bridges" are crossed with the back of the wrists touching, and with each of you extending gentle forward pressure along the centerline toward the other persons chest.

Now imagine your partner converts his lead arm into a strong punch straight forward towards your chest. Several things can happen:

1. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, and if his energy crosses your centerline from your right to left, his force will roll your lead arm over to the left into a bong sau "like a log rolling over in water" ...that is, if you are relaxed, have "springy energy" directed forward and maintain your "stick" to his bridge. It is a natural mechanical action. His force bends and rolls your arm into bong sau. He makes your defense.

2. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, but his energy is wide of center, towards the right side of your chest or towards your right shoulder, then his force will bend and compress your man-sau/lead arm rolling the wrist to the right into tan sau ...again if you have loose, "springy energy" and maintain" stick. Once more, it's a simple mechanical action resulting in tan-sau, and, voila, he makes your defense.

3. If his punch is high, toward the face, with a light elbow and breaking stick, it will now release your man-sau which will spring forward into a punch. As your "springy" arm snaps straight, it will deflect his punch (and posibly hit him as well). When he releases your spring-loaded arm, he initiates a simple mechanical action causing the classic punch against punch deflection. Again, he makes your defense.

In the WC groups that share "WT" roots, being able to let go of our own strength, to become so springy and responsive that we can use our opponent's energy to literally, mechanically make our defenses is perhaps the highest goal, and this is our interpretation of the famous kuen kuit: Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. Stay with what comes, follow the retreat, thrust forward when the hand is free ... or more simply, Become a spring.

Yes , we do that.
At the most basic level you see it is first taught in single sticking hands.
After you roll from Bong to Tan and do a palm strike , your opponent will use a Tor Sau to parry the attempted palm strike down.
From that low position you let him initiate the movement and let him raise your arm back into Bong Sau , all you have to do is let him revolve your forearm as you maintain your angle.

There are simple examples like that where the opponents force will revolve just your forearm into the appropriate shape and also exercises and techniques at a later stage that use the opponents energy to not only revolve your forearm but also your body (pivoting).

I would have thought that most Wing Chun would have included this , it seems to me that it would be an important prerequisite in not using brute strength and being able to overcome greater force.

 

[geezer]

Yes , we do that ...I would have thought that most Wing Chun would have included this , it seems to me that it would be an important prerequisite in not using brute strength and being able to overcome greater force.

I would also expect to find this in most WC. After all Mook, you immediately recognized what I was talking about. I suspect others may work at this, but just describe the process differently. Or perhaps they really don't try to move like this at all.

Often people try to be "soft" and borrow force more through their own conscious effort or through reflexive actions rather than just letting their opponent do the work. Depending on trained reflex alone is not the same as letting your opponent make your defense for you. I know it's hard for me to really pull this off except to a limited degree. And even less, under pressure.

When it's working, it's as natural as water flowing around rocks. The rocks shape the path of the water. When you are making a conscious effort "to go around the rocks" it seems awkward and ponderous by comparison.

 

[J W]

Imagine that you are in a the classic WC "ready position" or "pre-fighting posture" with a right man-sau or lead hand extended in front of you, and a left rear guard-hand or wu-sau held behind in front of your chest. Your training partner is facing you in the same position, also with a right lead, and your lead arm's "bridges" are crossed with the back of the wrists touching, and with each of you extending gentle forward pressure along the centerline toward the other persons chest.

Now imagine your partner converts his lead arm into a strong punch straight forward towards your chest. Several things can happen:

1. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, and if his energy crosses your centerline from your right to left, his force will roll your lead arm over to the left into a bong sau "like a log rolling over in water" ...that is, if you are relaxed, have "springy energy" directed forward and maintain your "stick" to his bridge. It is a natural mechanical action. His force bends and rolls your arm into bong sau. He makes your defense.

2. If his punch is heavy with a low elbow, but his energy is wide of center, towards the right side of your chest or towards your right shoulder, then his force will bend and compress your man-sau/lead arm rolling the wrist to the right into tan sau ...again if you have loose, "springy energy" and maintain" stick. Once more, it's a simple mechanical action resulting in tan-sau, and, voila, he makes your defense.

3. If his punch is high, toward the face, with a light elbow and breaking stick, it will now release your man-sau which will spring forward into a punch. As your "springy" arm snaps straight, it will deflect his punch (and posibly hit him as well). When he releases your spring-loaded arm, he initiates a simple mechanical action causing the classic punch against punch deflection. Again, he makes your defense.

When you put it that way, then yes, we do train for that. Maybe it's my inexperience showing again, but wouldn't a condition like #1 be necessary for a bong sau anyway? Isn't a bong sau usually going to be the result of your opponent's energy rolling your arm into it? Would you normally use a bong sau without being pressed into doing so?

If my assumption is correct, then the fact that the bong sau is common to all lineages would seem to suggest to me that most of them practice this sort of thing, at least to some degree, right? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though. I often am at this stage.

 

[mook jong man]

When you put it that way, then yes, we do train for that. Maybe it's my inexperience showing again, but wouldn't a condition like #1 be necessary for a bong sau anyway? Isn't a bong sau usually going to be the result of your opponent's energy rolling your arm into it? Would you normally use a bong sau without being pressed into doing so?

If my assumption is correct, then the fact that the bong sau is common to all lineages would seem to suggest to me that most of them practice this sort of thing, at least to some degree, right? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though. I often am at this stage.

Yes you can initiate the use of the Bong Sau.
Bong Sau combined with a step forward has an off balancing effect , so in a situation where you may not be able to pierce through the opponents defence with your Tan Sau , the use of the Bong Sau will off balance and often lead to his structure being weakened and a gap will often times open up.

 

[geezer]

...wouldn't a condition like #1 be necessary for a bong sau anyway? Isn't a bong sau usually going to be the result of your opponent's energy rolling your arm into it? Would you normally use a bong sau without being pressed into doing so?

Just because someone uses something shaped like a bong-sau doesn't mean that they use energy the same way. To answer your question above, no, I would not normally use a bong sau without being pressed into doing so. My first intent is always to go forward, to pierce my opponent's defense and to strike him. Bong is created by my opponent's force if I fail to pierce through his arms. When that occurs the bong can then yield and bent with the flow of his attack, or if my structure and angle is stronger, I can do what Mook suggested and press aggressively forward with my bong to unbalance my opponent and create an opening.

However, there are other WC lineages who prefer to use bong-sau aggressively, even as an attacking technique. They will launch a hard bong intentionally at an opponent's guard as an entering technique to knock their oppenent's arms aside. Others apply bong almost like a rising block in Karate to block an opponent's strike upward. In my lineage, we avoid such hard-style, power-based techniques.

 

[J W]

Thanks for the corrections, Mook and Geezer.

I think I get your distinction now between #2 and #3 in the original post, when I first read it I didn't really understand the difference. But you're making a distinction between the type of energy applied, constant forward energy vs a more yielding type of energy (right?). So given that, then I believe we use the same concept that you are describing, since forward energy is stressed in our school.

I didn't realize there were "hard" styles of Wing Chun, we're always told that if you have to use strength, you're doing it wrong.

 

[geezer]

...if you have to use strength, you're doing it wrong.

That's the gist of it.