Do you need to prove whether a strategy or technique combo work?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Common sense doesn't require proof. If "groin kick, face punch" doesn't work for you, it will be your problem and not the "technique problem". You don't need any video to prove whether that will work or not.

If your opponent's kick can reach to your body, your kick should be able to reach to his rooting leg too. If you don't have good timing to kick your opponent's rooting leg when he kicks you, that will be your problem and not the "strategy problem".

Both logic technique combo and logic strategy don't need any proof.

A: Dear master! You told me that every time my opponent punches me, I should kick him.
B: Yes! Because the leg is longer than the arm.
A: But why this strategy doesn't work for me? Can you prove it work?
B: Even it works for me. It may not work for you. You just need more training.

Your thought?

 

[Yokozuna514]

Common sense doesn't require proof. If "groin kick, face punch" doesn't work for you, it will be your problem and not the "technique problem". You don't need any video to prove whether that will work or not.

If your opponent's kick can reach to your body, your kick should be able to reach to his rooting leg too. If you don't have good timing to kick your opponent's rooting leg when he kicks you, that will be your problem and not the "strategy problem".

Both logic technique combo and logic strategy don't need any proof.

A: Dear master! You told me that every time my opponent punches me, I should kick him.
B: Yes! Because the leg is longer than the arm.
A: But why this strategy doesn't work for me? Can you prove it work?
B: Even it works for me. It may not work for you. You just need more training.

Your thought?

Just to be clear, are you advocating a one approach for all in your post above ? If we go based on the discussion you outlined:

A: Dear master! You told me that every time my opponent punches me, I should kick him.
B: Yes! Because the leg is longer than the arm.
A: But why this strategy doesn't work for me? Can you prove it work?
B: Even it works for me. It may not work for you. You just need more training.

Are you saying that "every time your opponent punches you" the proper response is to kick him because your leg is longer than his arm ?

All things being equal, that approach seems very sensible however things are typically not always equal. To exaggerate my point, let us say that the person kicking is of adult stature (ie: Very tall and large), who is fighting someone of childlike stature (ie: very short and small) insisting on only one response for the large person's punch may not be appropriate regardless of the amount of training the small person may do. The point I am trying to make is that the length of arm and the length of leg may be atypical at some point so to advocate one response to a given situation may not be the most sensible thing to do.

If I was faced with my own scenario, the response I would give is if your opponent is almost twice your size and is punching you, you may want to think of running away instead of kicking him. I do agree that it is not the technique's problem but a little situational awareness advice should accompany your statement to qualify when that technique would have the best chance of succeeding. It may not require a video to prove but I am sure there are many instances that will make the success of using that technique difficult to achieve.

I do agree that attacking the root leg of your opponent while they are kicking you is a very good strategy but implementing it in real time is not always easy and depends on your experience and abilities as compared to your opponent's.

If I am not responding to the question as you had intended, do not hesitate to clarify where I misunderstood.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you saying that "every time your opponent punches you" the proper response is to kick him because your leg is longer than his arm ?

There are many ways to deal with a punch. Some methods are better than the others. To keep your opponent in the kicking range, and not let him to get into the punching range is the best way to deal with a boxer. Same logic applies to not allow a wrestler to get his clinch.

Which method is better?

1. Wrap your opponent's punching arm and take him down.
2. Use kick to drop your opponent.

It depends on how much time that you have spent in your training. IMO, it makes no logic sense to prove whether 1 < 2, or 2 < 1.

but implementing it in real time is not always easy and depends on your experience and abilities as compared to your opponent's.

If it's easy, why do we need MA training for?

A: Dear master! How come my punch doesn't knock down my opponent?
B: Because your punch is not powerful enough.
A: Could you prove a powerful punch can knock down someone?
B: I don't think that proof will be necessary.

 

[Yokozuna514]

There are many ways to deal with a punch. Some methods are better than the others.

I think we both agree up until this point. I am not sure I follow what you are saying further on though. Perhaps I think I am missing the context that started your thread.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think we both agree up until this point. I am not sure I follow what you are saying further on though. Perhaps I think I am missing the context that started your thread.

This thread is trying to say that as long as something make logical sense, it doesn't require any proof.

For example, you don't need to prove the following:

If you work hard, your chance of success will be high.

 

[Buka]

I like to test out everything myself. I come from a time when there was, what I call, a lot of "opinion based Martial Arts." I'm not talking about style, I'm talking about training and incorporating things you train into application against resistance.

However, as for word of mouth, or someone telling me that something works, that depends on who that someone is. If some green belt who's still wet behind the ears tells me something works, that's one thing. If GSP tells me something works that's another thing entirely. And I give not one damn if someone uses "Master" in front of his name. I've met a whole boatload of "Masters".

Don't tell me, show me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don't tell me, show me.

You may be able to show your MA skill to your students when you are young. You may have difficulty to show your skill to your students when you are 80. Does that mean your students will not believe in you when you are old?

 

[wab25]

I like to test out everything myself.

I agree... but I have found that you have to do more testing than you think. I can find lots of things that "work" against the wet behind the ears green belts... that don't work on other folks. Many times I have found things that work really well against the high ranking guys I train with... but when I switch to someone else that moves differently, many times the same thing won't work.

I like to test out as many ideas as I can. If its my idea and it fails a few times, I move on. If it works a few times, then I need to be careful to keep testing in more situations before I make it one of my goto type things.

If the idea comes from someone else, then it matters who they are and what they can do with it. There are a lot of really great ideas, that work all the time... that I am not capable of doing yet. I would hate to throw those out simply because I haven't trained enough yet. Conversely, there is a lot of stuff that will only work when both sides know when to fall down.

The best thing is to just keep testing things against as many different people as you can. Then try to figure why it worked or didn't work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like to test out everything myself.

You have to develop a skill (this takes time) before you can test it.

MA is a big contradiction.

1. If you have strong grip, nobody can break it.
2. If you are strong, you should be able to break all grips.

Whether 1 is true for you, or 2 is true for you, it depends on your personal training.

 

[skribs]

Common sense doesn't require proof. If "groin kick, face punch" doesn't work for you, it will be your problem and not the "technique problem". You don't need any video to prove whether that will work or not.

There's a show called Mythbusters that proves a lot of things that are "common sense" aren't actually fact.

If your opponent's kick can reach to your body, your kick should be able to reach to his rooting leg too. If you don't have good timing to kick your opponent's rooting leg when he kicks you, that will be your problem and not the "strategy problem".

Nope. If his leg can reach your body, your leg may not reach his leg. For one, the angle of it. If both of your legs are 3 feet long, that means he's 3 feet away when he reaches you with a straight line. If you're kicking for his leg, then your leg won't reach all the way. That's how triangles work.

Both logic technique combo and logic strategy don't need any proof.

A: Dear master! You told me that every time my opponent punches me, I should kick him.
B: Yes! Because the leg is longer than the arm.
A: But why this strategy doesn't work for me? Can you prove it work?
B: Even it works for me. It may not work for you. You just need more training.

Your thought?

Why doesn't it work? What training needs to be done to make it work? That's the question.

When I'm in Hapkido, if something doesn't work, my Master or the black belt can usually give us some ideas why. It could be:

• We didn't use our footwork properly (most common)
• We stopped to do the technique step-by-step instead of smoothly moving through it, and lost our leverage
• We just need more muscle memory with certain parts of the technique
• We need more experience for when our opponent reacts a certain way
• We need more instruction in a specific detail of the technique

We don't always make it work right away, but we are able to get in the right direction, where further training can help us.

Both logic technique combo and logic strategy don't need any proof.

A: Dear master! You told me that every time my opponent punches me, I should kick him.
B: Yes! Because the leg is longer than the arm.
A: But why this strategy doesn't work for me? Can you prove it work?
B: Even it works for me. It may not work for you. You just need more training.

Your thought?

I quoted the same part again. This is because I wanted to highlight the other part of this: the Master isn't willing to show the student. Whenever one of my students asks me a question, I try it out with them. For example, one student had an issue with our wristlock techniques. She said "if you have both of your hands on my one arm, can't I just punch you with the other?" So I asked her to try it. I applied the wrist lock, and she was unable to turn her body to punch me with the other arm. The wrist lock did its job of keeping her at bay.

The student asked the question, and I showed her the answer. If she asked that question, and I just said "if they can punch you, then you need more training", that wouldn't have alleviated her concerns.

 

[skribs]

You may be able to show your MA skill to your students when you are young. You may have difficulty to show your skill to your students when you are 80. Does that mean your students will not believe in you when you are old?

Hopefully by then you will have underlings that are competent enough to handle this for you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The student asked the question, and I showed her the answer.

If she has technique but doesn't have ability, even if you have shown her how to do it, she may still not be able to do it.

 

[skribs]

If she has technique but doesn't have ability, even if you have shown her how to do it, she may still not be able to do it.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

I have shown my students how to break a jacket hold. But when i get a hold on their jacket, none of them can break my grip apart.

Can you explain why? Do they eventually learn how to break your grip apart? If they can't, then it sounds like you haven't actually taught them how to do it.

For example, I had a student, a white belt in our TKD class, ask me why she wasn't able to get one of our handgrab defenses working. She said her son had too strong of a grip. I explained to her that we were teaching her a specific technique, and what he was doing resists that technique, but it's also very easy to use other techniques against his resistance. The technique she was doing starts by pulling your arm up, but he was pulling down. I know techniques that work against people who are pulling down, but she doesn't. She'll learn those techniques later.

I was able to explain to her why it wasn't working, and how we will address that in the future. Are you able to explain to your students why they can't break your grip?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you explain why? Do they eventually learn how to break your grip apart? If they can't, then it sounds like you haven't actually taught them how to do it.

In MA, there are

1. 50% technique (such as how to throw a punch) and
2. 50% ability (such as how to develop punching power).

One can learn technique in school. He has to develop ability at home by himself. The ability development require time.

I was able to explain to her why it wasn't working, and how we will address that in the future. Are you able to explain to your students why they can't break your grip?

I have told my students that one day when their students cannot break their grip, they have developed some ability.

 

[Buka]

You may be able to show your MA skill to your students when you are young. You may have difficulty to show your skill to your students when you are 80. Does that mean your students will not believe in you when you are old?

Again, it depends on who's doing the telling. I stand on what's known of me by my students, all generations of my students.

But I'll let you know for sure in a dozen more years.

 

[Buka]

I agree... but I have found that you have to do more testing than you think. I can find lots of things that "work" against the wet behind the ears green belts... that don't work on other folks. Many times I have found things that work really well against the high ranking guys I train with... but when I switch to someone else that moves differently, many times the same thing won't work.

I like to test out as many ideas as I can. If its my idea and it fails a few times, I move on. If it works a few times, then I need to be careful to keep testing in more situations before I make it one of my goto type things.

If the idea comes from someone else, then it matters who they are and what they can do with it. There are a lot of really great ideas, that work all the time... that I am not capable of doing yet. I would hate to throw those out simply because I haven't trained enough yet. Conversely, there is a lot of stuff that will only work when both sides know when to fall down.

The best thing is to just keep testing things against as many different people as you can. Then try to figure why it worked or didn't work.

I don't test things against green belts, not even big strong green belts. I don't kick puppies, either.

And to test something out, one has to test against everyone they can. Not only the thing you are trying to test, but what to do when it misses, it slips, you screw it up, whatever.

And when you say this....."The best thing is to just keep testing things against as many different people as you can. Then try to figure why it worked or didn't work."

Exactly! Over and over again.

God damn I'm getting ornery. I need someone to rock and roll with.

 

[skribs]

I have told my students that one day when their students cannot break their grip, they have developed some ability.

That doesn't answer the question, nor does it tell them how to get there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That doesn't answer the question, nor does it tell them how to get there.

To develop strong

- grip, or
- head lock,

there is no short cut but to put training time into it.

Kung Fu = time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

To develop strong

- grip, or
- head lock,

there is no short cut but to put training time into it.

Kung Fu = time.

But what do you train is the question. Are you just doing randori a bunch? Are you squeezing a tennis ball or a spring collar over and over? Are you using an eagle catcher? Or something else?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But what do you train is the question. Are you just doing randori a bunch? Are you squeezing a tennis ball or a spring collar over and over? Are you using an eagle catcher? Or something else?

The following are traditional methods to develop strong grip:

- Twist cane bundle.
- Twist a piece dead wood.
- Twist a single head.
- Twist bricks in your hands.
- Throw square bag (with iron balls in it) by yourself, or with partners.
- Throw round bag (with iron balls in it) by yourself, or with partners.
- Swing long bag by yourself.
- Train belt cracking.
- Train jacket wrestling a lot.
- ...

IMO, the group square bag throwing is the best method.

Belt cracking: