Do You Know When to Stop?

[MartialIntent]

So there’s never a time to surrender or to give up when defending ourselves, I think I could get a faithful amen on that. But how do you know when to stop when you’re coming out on top? How do you know when you’ve given it enough?

You’ve got the better of your attacker – stopping too late may be seen [later on down the line] as you having used excessive or disproportional force in your defense, transforming it into an actual attack. But stopping too soon - or at least when you believe it’s safe to do so - may not be the resolution to the conflict but rather the metaphorical “bell” for your attacker to go to his corner and have his seconds tend him. Furthermore, you’ll have lost that previous advantage upon any reinitiation.

I saw this latter situation at the weekend: the defender released his pin and the aggressor got up and backed away, gesturing submissively with hands up in front of him. Seconds later he was back again with a bottle in his hand [all lager fueled yeah I know]. What do you think? Your training has worked and you’ve gained the upper hand. How do you know when to stop? When your attacker isn’t fighting back or when your attacker isn’t moving? Isn’t breathing?

Respects!

 

[JBrainard]

You stop when your attacker isn’t moving. It's the only way to be sure. On the flip side, you need to check your local laws on self-defence. You don't want the dumb **** to sue you.

 

[Bigshadow]

Subdue them until authorities arrive. If that won't work, incapacitate them until authorities arrive.

 

[MA-Caver]

Before I read the Thomas Covenant series and the "Oath of Peace" (see my sig below)... I always stopped when they stopped trying to get back up or stopped fighting (swinging/grabbing and kicking). Imagine the quiet thrill I got when I found a quote that articulated my fighting philosophy.
I never was one to subscribe to "beating them til I felt good or got it all out of my system". That's barbaric and pointless IMO. Since I'm not one to "start" fights (anymore) I'm going to fight my antagonist/attacker/opponent until they can't make the attempt to hurt me anymore and I can get away from them... by walking or running.

 

[Flying Crane]

as soon as you get the chance to get the hell out of Dodge City, do it. This is self-defense, not a "match" where you want to stick around and duke it out and prove who is best. Subduing the opponent until the police arrive is a nice idea, but shouldn't be the goal because by doing so you are taking a big risk by simply staying in the area. The guy might have lots of friends looking to get involved, or the guy might get away from you and turn the tables.

So I say, as soon as you get a chance, run. You may have injured your attacker already, or not, but it doesn't matter. If you think you can get away, do it. That's when it's time to stop. If he chases you and you can't run fast enough then you have to re-engage and take it to a higher level, but that should only be Plan B.

 

[MartialIntent]

I never was one to subscribe to "beating them til I felt good or got it all out of my system". That's barbaric and pointless IMO.

MA-C,
I agree with your points. This one above you made I think is fairly central to the integrity of most of what we've trained for - ie. to defend and not to attack which is what happens when we cross over into trying to get something "out of the system". Of course, if you've been in such a situation you'll undoubtedly know there's an instinct [a not very PC one] in most of us to continue the beating because someone has dared to attack us and this is regardless of our logic and sense telling us it's time to stop. Do you think continuing in anger or vindictiveness when we should stop is just a lack of self-control? What level of self-control should we aim for in this situation?

Respects!

 

[Bigshadow]

Subduing the opponent until the police arrive is a nice idea, but shouldn't be the goal because by doing so you are taking a big risk by simply staying in the area. The guy might have lots of friends looking to get involved, or the guy might get away from you and turn the tables.

Actually, getting away is the first. I suppose I had the beer bottle incident in my head. But yes, stopping at the point where I can safely get away, IS the point.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Bigshadow]

Do you think continuing in anger or vindictiveness when we should stop is just a lack of self-control?

Yes, clearly out of control.

What level of self-control should we aim for in this situation?

No mind.

 

[MJS]

So there’s never a time to surrender or to give up when defending ourselves, I think I could get a faithful amen on that. But how do you know when to stop when you’re coming out on top? How do you know when you’ve given it enough?

You’ve got the better of your attacker – stopping too late may be seen [later on down the line] as you having used excessive or disproportional force in your defense, transforming it into an actual attack. But stopping too soon - or at least when you believe it’s safe to do so - may not be the resolution to the conflict but rather the metaphorical “bell” for your attacker to go to his corner and have his seconds tend him. Furthermore, you’ll have lost that previous advantage upon any reinitiation.

I saw this latter situation at the weekend: the defender released his pin and the aggressor got up and backed away, gesturing submissively with hands up in front of him. Seconds later he was back again with a bottle in his hand [all lager fueled yeah I know]. What do you think? Your training has worked and you’ve gained the upper hand. How do you know when to stop? When your attacker isn’t fighting back or when your attacker isn’t moving? Isn’t breathing?

Respects!

I think that this is where having knowledge of the SD laws in your state will come in handy. Going all out could land us in more trouble than we originally had, and not going far enough could result in us having the person engage us again. I agree with FC..as soon as the avenue of escape presents itself, take it! I'd think that if they make an attempt to re-engage us, we'd be justified in taking our force to that next level.

Of course, taking into consideration mult. attackers, the possibility of a weapon, your location, time of day, etc. would also come into play during your defense.

Great thread!

Mike

 

[MA-Caver]

MA-C,
I agree with your points. This one above you made I think is fairly central to the integrity of most of what we've trained for - ie. to defend and not to attack which is what happens when we cross over into trying to get something "out of the system". Of course, if you've been in such a situation you'll undoubtedly know there's an instinct [a not very PC one] in most of us to continue the beating because someone has dared to attack us and this is regardless of our logic and sense telling us it's time to stop. Do you think continuing in anger or vindictiveness when we should stop is just a lack of self-control? What level of self-control should we aim for in this situation?

Respects!

IMO it is just simply that... a lack of self-control over your anger. Yes, it is appalling that someone would choose YOU to do whatever mis-deed they had in mind, and in my personal experience(s) my initial emotional response(s) has usually been anger more than fear, though both were present. If/When I have gained the upper hand I have been guilty of a "couple" of kicks above and beyond to the guy that's laying on the ground because (kick with each syllable) "he-just-pissed-me-off!" That was just instinct, and anger venting out. But now I feel that even instinct can be controlled/contained/ignored.
Now that I'm older, wiser (???) I feel that we (as Martialists) should add training of ourselves to control our base emotions so that we will be in better control of our minds and our bodies when it comes time to react to a threat.
Being able to take down an attacker more effectively than the average person lays upon our shoulders a responsibility to ourselves to maintain the discipline and control that is essential to the techniques applied and to control the "knee jerk" reaction of our emotional adrenalin dump when we are faced with a harmful situation.
It does sound easier said than done I'll admit, but it CAN be done. The energy created by these powerful emotions can likewise be helpful if channelled properly.

 

[Flatlander]

I have made the error of not stopping soon enough. It's a truely awful feeling; one that I wish upon nobody. Sadly, my personal safety was in no great danger at the onset of the altercation.

It is difficult to guage at what point one's attacker is sufficiently subdued to ensure one's own safety. It is tremendously more difficult to control one's emotions in the moment of raging, violent anger.

In response to the question, no. I do not know when to stop.

 

[Cryozombie]

I dont think you can say "I stop at point A, B or C" because every encounter is different.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I dont think you can say "I stop at point A, B or C" because every encounter is different.

With multiple variable inputs.

How many people?

Weapons and what are they?

Is the guy on the ground and still stating he is going to kill/hurt you?

To just name a small few.

 

[Ivan86]

With multiple variable inputs.

How many people?

Weapons and what are they?

Is the guy on the ground and still stating he is going to kill/hurt you?

To just name a small few.

Agreed. It all depends on the situation.

If there's multiple attackers, you might need to seriously injure some of them to take them out of the fight and make it easier to deal with.

If the guy's on the ground and reaching for the knife he dropped when you tore him down ...

And so on.

 

[Explorer]

We teach that force is used to create an avenue for escape. That is best accomplished when your attacker is incapacitated in some way ... in pain, unconcious or broken.

If you stick around the bad guys friends WILL come to his aid in one way or another. They may come to his aid when you start winning. It is extremely important to clear the danger zone as soon as possible and call the police to tell them what happened. Bad guys have been known to call the cops when they find themselves on the losing side ... as a last shot at you.

 

[Shaolinwind]

So there’s never a time to surrender or to give up when defending ourselves, I think I could get a faithful amen on that. But how do you know when to stop when you’re coming out on top? How do you know when you’ve given it enough?

You’ve got the better of your attacker – stopping too late may be seen [later on down the line] as you having used excessive or disproportional force in your defense, transforming it into an actual attack. But stopping too soon - or at least when you believe it’s safe to do so - may not be the resolution to the conflict but rather the metaphorical “bell” for your attacker to go to his corner and have his seconds tend him. Furthermore, you’ll have lost that previous advantage upon any reinitiation.

I saw this latter situation at the weekend: the defender released his pin and the aggressor got up and backed away, gesturing submissively with hands up in front of him. Seconds later he was back again with a bottle in his hand [all lager fueled yeah I know]. What do you think? Your training has worked and you’ve gained the upper hand. How do you know when to stop? When your attacker isn’t fighting back or when your attacker isn’t moving? Isn’t breathing?

Respects!

Well... If your opponent is on the ground and gesturing submissively, you can always swiftly leave. And if you don't want to be arrested, that's probably still a good idea.

 

[Shaolinwind]

Bad guys have been known to call the cops when they find themselves on the losing side ... as a last shot at you.

Agreed.. An assailant isn't usually interested in equity or justice. They are interested in causing you any harm they can.

 

[pstarr]

The problem arises when, in the heat of the fight, you begin to "think." You begin to concern yourself with whether you should stop at this or that point and you can lose focus on what you're doing.

I'm not saying that you should beat the guy until he's little more than a wet spot on the pavement but it's not a good idea to "think", either.

When he's rendered incapable of continuing the fight, it's over...I think if you maintain an awareness of that concept you'll be okay.

 

[KenpoTex]

When to stop? when the attacker is incapable or obviously unwilling (i.e. running away) to continue his aggressive behavior. For me, this is generally going to mean putting them on the ground (preferrably by rendering them unconscious) or breaking a bone or two. Something that's damaging enough to give me the opportunity to escape SAFELY.

 

[MartialIntent]

I have made the error of not stopping soon enough. It's a truely awful feeling; one that I wish upon nobody. Sadly, my personal safety was in no great danger at the onset of the altercation.

It is difficult to guage at what point one's attacker is sufficiently subdued to ensure one's own safety. It is tremendously more difficult to control one's emotions in the moment of raging, violent anger.

In response to the question, no. I do not know when to stop.

Yeah, I think it's easy to theorize but I agree, when we're landed in an *actual* situation it's a little harder to hear that voice of reason saying "enough" when you feel such a clear and present danger to your own life.

Respects!