disadvantages of MT(for self defense)

[cfr]

Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.) :ultracool

I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:

1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.

Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???

 

[arnisador]

Concessions to the fact that it's a sport, I suppose--with the groin not a target and tackling disallowed, they must optimize for the situation, as boxers do. The question is, does the realism of the training make up for it?

 

[moving target]

MT is a sport, I don't think people get in a street fight thinking it will be like a ring fight, the benefit of training in any kind of sport is that you can sharpen specific tools.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.) :ultracool

I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:

1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.

Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???

Squaring off by facing eachother is not as dangerous as you were taught. Minimizing your targets by completly turning your body limits missle attacks, but thes guys have round house kicks from hell. The trade off for speed and mobility is well worth it for their purposes. I'll use a saying from the movie SWAT, "Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the right thing to do."
Sean

 

[KennethKu]

.....
1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.

Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???

MT as practiced for self defence and combat is NOT constrained by the sport rules. Needless to say that is also true for all MA practiced in combat. People are not morons. Every practitioner knows the difference between sparring in the rings and combat and adapts the MA accordingly.

 

[OULobo]

I think the "squared stance" can be explained, as already mentioned, by the idea that the groin is not a target in Muay Thai, which is a sport and the competitors are expected to abide by the rules. I often hear that early competitors wore coconuts for protection.

The fully erect stance is IMO idea for mobility and power generation.

 

[Azagthoth]

Hey Cfr,
I can maybe explain some of what you're asking..the reasons you see muay thai guys in the kind of straight up, almost squared stance make sense after you practice the art for awhile. One of the big things is that if you get sideways like other arts, ie. with the front and back feet in line perpendicular to the opponent, a muay thai leg kick will put you right on the ground, since it will usually hit both legs right behind the knees. We have seen this many times at our school where both MT and TKD are taught....the TKD guys learn very quickly when they come to MT sparring class that the sideways TKD stance is a bad idea Also, this stance allows for the most power from the roundhouse kick, and it's the easiest stance to be in for throwing elbows and knees, which we are quite fond of.

As other people mentioned in replies, the groin is not a target in sport MT so we tend to not worry as much about getting hit there, although in a street situation I would tend to worry about it alot.

As far as being easy to take down, you'll probably find that if you aren't very confident in methods of taking people down, this won't be as easy as it seems...most MT people I work out with are very familiar with how to sprawl, as we know that there are fights outside of the muay thai ring. Also you have to make sure you don't eat knees while shooting..ouch.

Hope that helps a little!

 

[soccer50]

you stand however u want to stand in the ring.

and from the looks of it, u've never gotten in a fist fight. there is no stance is fist fights. everythign is fast and constantly moving. Muay Thai teaches you to hit fast and hard. and keep you hands up. watever martial art that "teaches" you "street defence" is bull$h|t. thats the kind of crap that will get you really messed up. and the instructor probabnly hasnt even fuohght a real fite.

 

[cfr]

you stand however u want to stand in the ring.

and from the looks of it, u've never gotten in a fist fight. there is no stance is fist fights. everythign is fast and constantly moving. Muay Thai teaches you to hit fast and hard. and keep you hands up. watever martial art that "teaches" you "street defence" is bull$h|t. thats the kind of crap that will get you really messed up. and the instructor probabnly hasnt even fuohght a real fite.

Admins thanks for deleteing my last response.


Your insights and knowledge are fascinating. If I ever have the opportunity to meet Dan Inosanto, I will let him know how you feel LOL. :uhyeah: My instructor grew up in the Phillipines and got into lots of fights. How you came up with all this profound wisdom is totally beyond me.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Cfr,

The stance that Kru Chai teaches us, is not 100% squared off. You are at a slight angle, to make good use of your hands, while still enabling you to make effective use of your elbows, knees, and kicks. Your groin is not completely exposed, but it wouldn't take much to get in there either. To completely square off, is to give up the body placement needed for effective punches. Also, when practicing MT there should be some slight movement within your stance, so you will hardly ever be standing completely straight up. You must keep in mind, not all Muay Thai is the exact same from school to school. Stances, techniques, and mechanics will change a little bit from gym to gym. Additionally, learning to sprawl is among the first things we are taught to help prevent such shooting situations.

:asian:

 

[Kris]

As far as stances go, i can see many reasons for a more squared off approach. I'm having a hell of time trying to break my old karate habits to learn muay thai, and that includes using a deep and less squared off stance. Not only does this limit your punches severly, it also leaves that front foot wide open to leg sweeps which if you have a more squared off stance you can recover from.

my 0.02 late in the evening....

 

[legend29]

I'll just say what my Kru says over an over to people who wonder if Muay Thai is a good reality based martial art as opposed to just being a sport.

" Muay Thai is more than a sport. People play football and basketball, but people don't play Muay Thai ! It doesn't get more realistic than that "

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Hey everyone, new guy here. Having done Muay Thai for over 10 years, I can say that it is an art that geared for combat. MT is a lot like boxing: there are few strikes to learn, and the rest is training. Many people do not understand the level of training that the fighters endure. I saw a perfect example of this the other day. The gym I train at also has instructors who do JKD, and I believe that the instructor incorporates some MT in to those workouts. However, when some of the JKD students showed up for the MT class, they realized how hard-core the MT workouts are. Regarding the stance, I have never found it to be a disadvantage in either sparring or street situations. I think it's a pretty agile stance, which allows me to move in and out, as well as laterally without sacrificing my ability to throw strikes.

 

[jukado1]

Basic fact, Muay Thai is not self defense, self defense is self defense. but if you think that an advanced mt fighter could not defend themselves, its been nice knowing you. MT does not teach how to stop a take down, how to defend against a choke, or weapons attacks. But if you check with some of the top teachers you'll find out that these things are covered in MT self defense training. If you really look with an open mind, you'll see that no martial art has all the answers in self defense, but the more of them you study, the more you can learn.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.) :ultracool

I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:

1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.

Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???

i'm not 100% sure but i believe another advantage to this stance is to permit the fighter to block the roundhouse kick(from either side) with either his knee, elbow or combo of both. input from muay thai guys requested to substantiate thet. regards :asian:

 

[auxprix]

I'm not in MT, but rather Judo. I just wanted to put a little insight into the takedown thing, since that is pretty much all we do.

We basically stand in a square stance as well. I believe it is harder to perform a throw or takedown on an opponent who is squared off. First of all, the square stance tends to provide a more even balance. As long as the fighter is flexible while square, it can be difficult to take them down. The side stance is very week in Judo, and is usually an indication that you have been set off balance and are about to be taken down. If I were personally wrestling a side stance, all I would probably have to do is pull the sleeve toward me and slip my foot behind the heel.

This is just from a Judo perspective. I am by no means a MMA expert, but I thought it may be helpful.

 

[loki09789]

Basic fact, Muay Thai is not self defense, self defense is self defense. but if you think that an advanced mt fighter could not defend themselves, its been nice knowing you. MT does not teach how to stop a take down, how to defend against a choke, or weapons attacks. But if you check with some of the top teachers you'll find out that these things are covered in MT self defense training. If you really look with an open mind, you'll see that no martial art has all the answers in self defense, but the more of them you study, the more you can learn.

If I am not mistaken, like Judo, MT is a sport version of a combative system. If the fighter in MT understands how to translate sport skill to the street then it can work. The biggest rep that MT has IMO is its full contact training for toughness both mental and physical and the fitness/conditioning.

I am not a fan of 'one way' training, but if a guy can make his 'hammer only' tool box work because he is tougher and more fit and combines it with good judgement (either from lessons learned or tactical training/street training) then I sure as hell don't want to have to deal with him/her.

 

[muaythaifreak]

You would probably be ill advised to attempt to block a round kick with your elbow as it will undoubtedly be smashed if the kick is thrown with the proper force. Round kicks are blocked with the shin. Preferably the upper shin. I have seen it done with the knee as a "destruction" block, (similar to blocking a jab or right cross with your elbow.), however, I think the possiblility of a knee injury outweighs the possible benefit of causing the kicker to break their shin. (which rarely happens).

As to MT having no defense against grappling/throws/ weapons, the assumption that MT has none is simply incorrect. SPORT MT certainly does not, however TRADITIONAL MT has many. Check out Krabi Krabong, memai muay thai, and muay boran. There is a plethera of these techniques present in traditional MT. The MT you see today is what has evolved over the past 100 years or so as a national pastime and organized sport. Traditional MT has been around by some accounts for 3000 years, by others for 2000. What is presented in the ring is merely the tip of the iceburg.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

You would probably be ill advised to attempt to block a round kick with your elbow as it will undoubtedly be smashed if the kick is thrown with the proper force. Round kicks are blocked with the shin. Preferably the upper shin. I have seen it done with the knee as a "destruction" block, (similar to blocking a jab or right cross with your elbow.), however, I think the possiblility of a knee injury outweighs the possible benefit of causing the kicker to break their shin. (which rarely happens).

As to MT having no defense against grappling/throws/ weapons, the assumption that MT has none is simply incorrect. SPORT MT certainly does not, however TRADITIONAL MT has many. Check out Krabi Krabong, memai muay thai, and muay boran. There is a plethera of these techniques present in traditional MT. The MT you see today is what has evolved over the past 100 years or so as a national pastime and organized sport. Traditional MT has been around by some accounts for 3000 years, by others for 2000. What is presented in the ring is merely the tip of the iceburg.

sorriy, i guess i didn't explain that very well, i didn't mean a destruction with your elbow but basically presenting a wall with that side of your body, or (taken from lana muay thai)

http://lannamuaythai.com/cgi-bin/s?...hniques__guards_blocks.html&m=398279760200000

:asian:

 

[muaythaifreak]

Yep, that's how it's done!