DF: For the sake of argument....

[Clark Kent]

For the sake of argument....
By William - Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:31:30 GMT
Originally Posted at: Deluxe Forums
====================

I'm going to play the "Devil's advocate" for a moment here and ask a question:

How relevant is blade/weapon training here in the U.S.? How many people will, other then those that are put in harms way by occupation or by choice (meaning hang out in bars or areas where trouble is the norm), really need to train weapons? For the majority of people, knowing a so called "mixed" martial art that covers stand up and ground fighting would likely be enough for a large percentage of the people out there.

Why ask the question?

The other day I found an old UFC 2 tape, this was back when there were almost no rules and the fighters claimed to be from more traditional styles. Karate, Kung-Fu, TKD, Kickboxing (though some were obviously MT even though they didn't call it that), grappling, etc... It was painfully obvious that some of the stylists had never really fought outside of there own systems. Using "traditional" stances that the experienced fighters (grapplers & "kick boxers") were able to tear apart. By today's UFC standards, it's almost laughable. Thing was, they came in believing that they could prevail with little to no real experience against the types of fighters they were going against.

How does this relate?

So, that got me to thinking...How many people who train weapons have really ever been in an altercation using a blade, or dealing with a weapon wielding attacker? Again, the percentages are low. You train for all kinds of scenarios against blade wielding attackers....yet few have tried it live blade. You train for fighting with or defending against impact weapons. Yet how many will get out there and fight full contact with minimal to no gear?

The DB'ers brought it out into the open back in the 90's, but groups had been doing it well before that. A lot of people who hadn't found out quickly that a lot movements and strikes they could pull off in flow drills or at 1/4 to 1/2 power just didn't work against full force power strikes coming in. With the increased popularity of the FMA's, more groups have popped up with varied levels of real time commitment. But whether the groups are stuck in flow drills, or get into minimal gear full contact fighting, the fact remains that short of getting into a real knife/weapons fight, one could argue it's all theory. Like some of the Thai fighters say, "if you aren't getting in the ring and fighting, you're not doing Muay Thai, you're just Thai pad training". If you're not doing live blade training, or real-time full contact no gear fighting, are you really doing FMA? Or are you just doing stick and dummy blade forms?

Again, just playing the D-man's advocate in asking the question.

I've voiced my opinions on this subject on this forum a number of times before. Back when it was much more active then it is today. I'll preface this by saying that Filipino and Thai system have been my main focus since the late 80's (though, as Tuhon Gaje says, which is so very true, "It's not the years affiliated, it's the hours trained").


William


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[arnisador]

I'm not in favor of significant live blade training. There's too little upside, in part for the reasons indicated--the risk of self-injury exceeds the expected benefits, given that the encounter is unlikely and that even the best-trained FMAer is at a disadvantage against the knife.

But, it's a good question. I've been attacked with a knife once plus having been threatened with one). I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yet, the U.K. considers itself to be in an epidemic of knife-related violence, and more and more places are banning swords due to machete attacks. Stories of random NYC subway attacks are common. Domestic violence can easily involve a kitchen knife.

I teach at a small, private college. In class yesterday I noticed that at least 6 of not quite 30 students carried 4" folders, and one had a smaller pocket knife. (One had a folding boxcutter in addition to his assisted-open blade.) That's just over 20% who were armed. A small disagreement then has the potential to become something quite worse.

People have trained for centuries in how to fight with bladed weapons without going MMA on each other...medieval knights, samurai, Roman soldiers, etc. It can be done, if one trains honestly and adapts to changing circumstances.

 

[Carol]

It's entirely realistic that if I have to use my skills, it will be against someone thats not female, a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than me, and that the attack can happen any time.......including long before I have mastered an empty hand art enough to effectively deal with a variety of scenarios from someone significantly bigger and stronger. I do have some grappling skills but if I get involved in an altercation, there is no way in hell I want it to go to the ground. My focus will be on keeping the fight off the ground.

Weapons training, for me, is definitely an interest.

 

[Rocky]

I think that live blade training is a must when you are advanced enough, just as full contact fighting is, you don't have to do it on a daily basis and criple yourself, but doing so on ocassion is a real eye opener. when it comes to impact weapons I try to get my students to try live stick fencing mask, NO GLOVES, but a knee and elbow pad, in my experiance a blast to the hand heals, but also points out bad habits....Knees and elbows can shatter, ( Happend to a friend of mine ) and that is a life time injury. As far as the knife goes just cruise te net and checkout the videos of Espada Y Daga and knife defense, its very easy to see many a high ranking people do things that would cause them to end up on a slab in real life, a good blunt wooden knife with ink on the blade will also open your eyes if you train full speed.


Rocky