Damned if you do. Damned if you don't
- Thread starter theletch1
- Start date
You know some people was saying this back when they first started and they where told there reports where wrong. Who should we believe anymore?
thardey
Master Black Belt
Definitely not whoever stands to make the most money!
The carbon footprint of Biofuels isn't the issue right now, in my humble opinion. It is Sustainability.
If the US were to switch ALL CROPS. Meaning all food crops over to either corn for ethanol or soy for biodiesel....it would only account for 6% of our gasoline needs or 12% of our Diesel needs for a year. So basically, there will NEVER be enough of these biofuels to sustain us. In order for biofuels to be a viable alternative fuel, our technology needs to advance by leaps and bounds. A fuel must be sustainable, have a positive net energy gain, NOT use food sources and be economical.
What boggles my mind is why we aren't further investigating solar or electic powered cars....oh wait, no, I know why! THE OIL COMPANIES!
If the US were to switch ALL CROPS. Meaning all food crops over to either corn for ethanol or soy for biodiesel....it would only account for 6% of our gasoline needs or 12% of our Diesel needs for a year. So basically, there will NEVER be enough of these biofuels to sustain us. In order for biofuels to be a viable alternative fuel, our technology needs to advance by leaps and bounds. A fuel must be sustainable, have a positive net energy gain, NOT use food sources and be economical.
What boggles my mind is why we aren't further investigating solar or electic powered cars....oh wait, no, I know why! THE OIL COMPANIES!
LuzRD
Black Belt
Deceptive headlines, skewing the difference between biofuels and clearing large areas of land, the media is turning somthing good into somthing evil again.
so, the new york times runs the headline "Biofuels Deemed a Greenhouse Threat" and then proceeds to elaborate on how its bad for the environment to clear land?! ya know some people that dont actually read the drivvle this rag puts out but read or hear about the headline might actually think that the hippy converting USED veggie oil for fuel is doing a bad thing (ok he prolly is doing a bad thing. but that involves some pink floyd, a black light and plenty of munchies). how about "Mass production of biofuels could be counterproductive to eco concerns" or somthing thats actually ACCURATE?!?!?
"These studies for the first time take a detailed, comprehensive look at the emissions effects of the huge amount of natural land that is being converted to cropland globally to support biofuels development.
The destruction of natural ecosystems — whether rain forest in the tropics or grasslands in South America — not only releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere when they are burned and plowed, but also deprives the planet of natural sponges to absorb carbon emissions. Cropland also absorbs far less carbon than the rain forests or even scrubland that it replaces."
"“When you take this into account, most of the biofuel that people are using or planning to use would probably increase greenhouse gasses substantially,”"
"These plant-based fuels were originally billed as better than fossil fuels because the carbon released when they were burned was balanced by the carbon absorbed when the plants grew. But even that equation proved overly simplistic because the process of turning plants into fuels causes its own emissions — for refining and transport, for example."
"The European Biodiesel Board says that biodiesel reduces greenhouse gasses by 50 to 95 percent compared to conventional fuel"
anybody else think that this was maybe "reported" incorrectly?
(BTW sorry if i flipped a little at the beginning, but i really hate the media! the use of scare tactics to boost sales can actually trick some people into believing this kind of garbage) :soapbox:
so, the new york times runs the headline "Biofuels Deemed a Greenhouse Threat" and then proceeds to elaborate on how its bad for the environment to clear land?! ya know some people that dont actually read the drivvle this rag puts out but read or hear about the headline might actually think that the hippy converting USED veggie oil for fuel is doing a bad thing (ok he prolly is doing a bad thing. but that involves some pink floyd, a black light and plenty of munchies). how about "Mass production of biofuels could be counterproductive to eco concerns" or somthing thats actually ACCURATE?!?!?
"These studies for the first time take a detailed, comprehensive look at the emissions effects of the huge amount of natural land that is being converted to cropland globally to support biofuels development.
The destruction of natural ecosystems — whether rain forest in the tropics or grasslands in South America — not only releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere when they are burned and plowed, but also deprives the planet of natural sponges to absorb carbon emissions. Cropland also absorbs far less carbon than the rain forests or even scrubland that it replaces."
"“When you take this into account, most of the biofuel that people are using or planning to use would probably increase greenhouse gasses substantially,”"
"These plant-based fuels were originally billed as better than fossil fuels because the carbon released when they were burned was balanced by the carbon absorbed when the plants grew. But even that equation proved overly simplistic because the process of turning plants into fuels causes its own emissions — for refining and transport, for example."
"The European Biodiesel Board says that biodiesel reduces greenhouse gasses by 50 to 95 percent compared to conventional fuel"
anybody else think that this was maybe "reported" incorrectly?
(BTW sorry if i flipped a little at the beginning, but i really hate the media! the use of scare tactics to boost sales can actually trick some people into believing this kind of garbage) :soapbox:
Actually....not at all. I am working on a study of various alternative fuel sources, including biofuels. And unfortunately, most of this article is pretty much dead on with the leading research in the area. From a literature review that I've been doing, I have found that many researchers are beginning to think that maybe biofuels are NOT the way to go - for many reasons.
First, I should probably clear up a misconception. When they talk about biofuels, they are talking PRIMARILY about corn ethanol and Soybean biodiesel. There are other fuels and recycled fuel sources, but these are currently the two leading fuels. Corn makes ethanol, soy makes biodiesel.
I noticed that you referred to vegetable oil fuel. SO FAR, I haven't run across any peer reviewed resources regarding this method, so I'm kind of curious about it. If you have some resources, please let me know. My interpretation is the growing concern that more and more crops and being switched over from food stocks to corn and soy production to gain government subsidies and try to sell these crops for biofuel production. Thereby reducing the amount of food stocks AVAILABLE for food consumption and sales. It is having a DIRECT impact to my life, as the price of hay has SKYROCKETED (My wife and I own two horses). This has happend - at least in Ohio - because many of the local farmers have scrapped their hay fields for corn and soy fields.
First and foremost in my opinion is - as I stated above, the inability to sustain the fuel source. We simply cannot make enough of the crops needed to make the two primary biofuels in use today.
Second, as I've discussed above, it is having an impact on food prices and food availability on a global scale. As I mentioned above, many crops are being switched over to corn and soy. And as mentioned in my previous posts, even if ALL of our crops were converted, we wouldn't even COME CLOSE to reaching our goals for fuels.
Third, in my opinion is the "carbon footprint" and energy benefit of biofuels. Now, I do agree 100% with you that the media is over inflating things, as I have read studies that scientifically determined that both corn AND soy have "positive net energy gains" - meaning that the overall production of these things produce more ENERGY than other fuels. Now, their carbon footprint, (total CO2 production throughout the lifecycle) may or may not be larger. Honestly, I haven't gotten that far and I would be THRILLED to know what resources they are using for this data.
Most of the stuff in that article, though skewed is not too far off the mark. Biofuels ARE NOT necessarily the answer. I AM an environmentalist. I believe that we are going in the right direction with biofuels, but the idea has been bastardized by the government! By subsidized and placing "goals" on these things, we are driving things too far. Biofuels are a great way to start taking a bite out of fossil fuel usage, but they are only the first step down a long road of the need for increasing technology. I feel that as our technology advances, we will find more and more ways to make alternative fuel sources.
Switchgrass for example - this is a GREAT alternative fuel source! It is HUGE (vertically), captures LOTS of solar energy and makes plenty of cellulose. The problem is that it is so costly and UN-energy efficient to distill the cellulose or energy. Once our technology gets to the point where we can get the energy out quickly and easily.....that will be a REAL good option. But we need more....along with a decreased influence from the oil companies on the technology market.
First, I should probably clear up a misconception. When they talk about biofuels, they are talking PRIMARILY about corn ethanol and Soybean biodiesel. There are other fuels and recycled fuel sources, but these are currently the two leading fuels. Corn makes ethanol, soy makes biodiesel.
I noticed that you referred to vegetable oil fuel. SO FAR, I haven't run across any peer reviewed resources regarding this method, so I'm kind of curious about it. If you have some resources, please let me know. My interpretation is the growing concern that more and more crops and being switched over from food stocks to corn and soy production to gain government subsidies and try to sell these crops for biofuel production. Thereby reducing the amount of food stocks AVAILABLE for food consumption and sales. It is having a DIRECT impact to my life, as the price of hay has SKYROCKETED (My wife and I own two horses). This has happend - at least in Ohio - because many of the local farmers have scrapped their hay fields for corn and soy fields.
First and foremost in my opinion is - as I stated above, the inability to sustain the fuel source. We simply cannot make enough of the crops needed to make the two primary biofuels in use today.
Second, as I've discussed above, it is having an impact on food prices and food availability on a global scale. As I mentioned above, many crops are being switched over to corn and soy. And as mentioned in my previous posts, even if ALL of our crops were converted, we wouldn't even COME CLOSE to reaching our goals for fuels.
Third, in my opinion is the "carbon footprint" and energy benefit of biofuels. Now, I do agree 100% with you that the media is over inflating things, as I have read studies that scientifically determined that both corn AND soy have "positive net energy gains" - meaning that the overall production of these things produce more ENERGY than other fuels. Now, their carbon footprint, (total CO2 production throughout the lifecycle) may or may not be larger. Honestly, I haven't gotten that far and I would be THRILLED to know what resources they are using for this data.
Most of the stuff in that article, though skewed is not too far off the mark. Biofuels ARE NOT necessarily the answer. I AM an environmentalist. I believe that we are going in the right direction with biofuels, but the idea has been bastardized by the government! By subsidized and placing "goals" on these things, we are driving things too far. Biofuels are a great way to start taking a bite out of fossil fuel usage, but they are only the first step down a long road of the need for increasing technology. I feel that as our technology advances, we will find more and more ways to make alternative fuel sources.
Switchgrass for example - this is a GREAT alternative fuel source! It is HUGE (vertically), captures LOTS of solar energy and makes plenty of cellulose. The problem is that it is so costly and UN-energy efficient to distill the cellulose or energy. Once our technology gets to the point where we can get the energy out quickly and easily.....that will be a REAL good option. But we need more....along with a decreased influence from the oil companies on the technology market.
The issue hear is not is the "BEST" for Green House issues. Does it give those involved in trying to find other solutions options? Yes. Does it allow for the Bio-Fuels to be used in the reproduction of more bio-fuels? Yes.
There are two issues.
1) Green House gases and emissions in general
2) The limited supply of Oil
This is a good point....Just getting people thinking in these terms is a big step.
'
We will eventually need an alternative fuel than oil. Although I believe we have more time than some do, the shared resource is quickly reaching its limit. Our CO2 production is also tapering off, but as the population of the world increases, we have to be ever more vigilant about the things that produce "greenhouse" gases and try to find other ways to make energy.
LuzRD
Black Belt
it seems to me that some of the views in my previous post deal ALOT more (almost exclusively) with previously used oils (waste oil) biofuels to replace diesel fuel with no consideration of ethanol fuel sources to replace gasoline.
MBuzzy im not sure what your refering to when you ask for vegetable oil fuel resources, i have done some "research" about converting used fryer oil to biodiesel, as well as converting vehicles to run straight waste vegetable oil. both of which are (for those new to this concept) for diesel engines.
(im sure MY idea of research is laughable to someone who actually knows whats what however if i have anything on this computer or any links that may be of interest id be happy to send them to you, but i dont think i have anything beyond the conversion methods found by googling "biodiesel" lol)
when i asked if anybody thinks this was reported incorrectly i meant that the NY times presented the findings incorrectly not that the information was inaccurate. as the headline makes relatively clean burning (from what ive read) fuel seem bad, when they are ion actuallity talking about high volume mass production being counterproductive to the gains of otherwise relatively eco friendly fuels.
if im in the wrong i would appreciate knowing it. i have planned for some time to use USED sources of oil to power my diesel. now the primary goal is saving some money, but i figure that since the oil is already used that the article in question "shouldnt" apply to my plans.
MBuzzy im not sure what your refering to when you ask for vegetable oil fuel resources, i have done some "research" about converting used fryer oil to biodiesel, as well as converting vehicles to run straight waste vegetable oil. both of which are (for those new to this concept) for diesel engines.
(im sure MY idea of research is laughable to someone who actually knows whats what however if i have anything on this computer or any links that may be of interest id be happy to send them to you, but i dont think i have anything beyond the conversion methods found by googling "biodiesel" lol)
when i asked if anybody thinks this was reported incorrectly i meant that the NY times presented the findings incorrectly not that the information was inaccurate. as the headline makes relatively clean burning (from what ive read) fuel seem bad, when they are ion actuallity talking about high volume mass production being counterproductive to the gains of otherwise relatively eco friendly fuels.
if im in the wrong i would appreciate knowing it. i have planned for some time to use USED sources of oil to power my diesel. now the primary goal is saving some money, but i figure that since the oil is already used that the article in question "shouldnt" apply to my plans.
I understand! I think that usually when people refer to "biofuels" they are meaning corn and soy being converted to ethanol and boidiesel rather than recycled oils. Recycled oils are a GREAT thing, so go for it! The thing about vegetable oil in the article, I think, was just talking about increased food stock and vegetable oil prices in the first place.
I thought you were referring to vegetable oil as being a biofuel, but I would be interested in whatever you've got on vegetable oil conversion and usage as a fuel.
I think you're dead on with the NY Times' report being skewed. Most of the info is right, but the presentation was pretty off. Announcing that Boifuels are BAD is mjuch worse than the carbon footprint of the fuels themselves. People don't need anyone giving more fodder for further entrenging the oil companies.
And actually - the internet is a great place for research....it just takes more "filtering." Everything that I've been reading lately has been out of peer-reviewed journals, which are generally what people are talking about when they are doing high level research without their own data collection. Following exhausting those resources though, the internet's the next step....
LuzRD
Black Belt
whatever pdf's ive downloaded are currently inaccesable as theyre on my other computer whos hard drive decided to "take a break" from life the other day 
as for links though (a few from a quick google search)...
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
is probably my favorite all around
www.biodiesel.org/
seems to have a good deal of info
www.biodieselfuelonline.com/Biodiesel_Algae.html
biodiesel from algae, new idea to me but no real information on that page.
www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/
another new site to me, but seems informative
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
one of the first sites that caught my attention a couple years ago. has links for "online resources" and forums etc..
these links are mostly (if not entirely) about transesterification of oil, methanol/ethanol, and lye to make fuel. there are also numerous companies that sell conversions for cars/trucks to run straight waste vegetable oil "wvo" or straight vegetable oil "svo"
and of course (?)
the mythbusters segment running straight waste oil :lol:
as for links though (a few from a quick google search)...
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
is probably my favorite all around
www.biodiesel.org/
seems to have a good deal of info
www.biodieselfuelonline.com/Biodiesel_Algae.html
biodiesel from algae, new idea to me but no real information on that page.
www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/
another new site to me, but seems informative
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
one of the first sites that caught my attention a couple years ago. has links for "online resources" and forums etc..
these links are mostly (if not entirely) about transesterification of oil, methanol/ethanol, and lye to make fuel. there are also numerous companies that sell conversions for cars/trucks to run straight waste vegetable oil "wvo" or straight vegetable oil "svo"
and of course (?)
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