Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage?

[Fred B.]

So, discovered this topic during a search on Aikijujutsu. Its always been intersting to me that practicing ( practical ) Chen Taijiquan and other variations as well as Bagua Zhang, that I am able to match the techniques of Aikijujutsu and Aikido without formally training in a school. I've had the thought that someone must have learned or had conversation with someone from Chen village, just as Aikido had influence from Bagua Zhang.
Peace.

 

[BrendanF]

Its always been intersting to me that practicing ( practical ) Chen Taijiquan and other variations as well as Bagua Zhang, that I am able to match the techniques of Aikijujutsu and Aikido without formally training in a school.

It always surprises me when people make these types of claims. How do you know that you are 'able to match the techniques of Aikijujutsu and Aikido'? Do you think that mimicking the outer shape/movement of a technique is the same as performing another style's technique?

I've had the thought that someone must have learned or had conversation with someone from Chen village, just as Aikido had influence from Bagua Zhang.

No it didn't.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So, discovered this topic during a search on Aikijujutsu. Its always been intersting to me that practicing ( practical ) Chen Taijiquan and other variations as well as Bagua Zhang, that I am able to match the techniques of Aikijujutsu and Aikido without formally training in a school. I've had the thought that someone must have learned or had conversation with someone from Chen village, just as Aikido had influence from Bagua Zhang.
Peace.

watched my daughters Aikido class for years, I also trained taijiquan for years, Yang and some Chen, also have trained Baguazhang. I saw a lot of similarities, but there is no direct link between Aikido and taijiquan or baguazhang. Look at things deeply and you will also see some pretty big differences, even though things look similar.

 

[frank raud]

Seem to remember a long ago thread about this, didn't go well for the person suggesting the connection.

 

[geezer]

Seem to remember a long ago thread about this, didn't go well for the person suggesting the connection.

What do you mean? Education is a positive thing!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Seem to remember a long ago thread about this, didn't go well for the person suggesting the connection.

What do you mean? Education is a positive thing!

 

[O'Malley]

So, discovered this topic during a search on Aikijujutsu. Its always been intersting to me that practicing ( practical ) Chen Taijiquan and other variations as well as Bagua Zhang, that I am able to match the techniques of Aikijujutsu and Aikido without formally training in a school. I've had the thought that someone must have learned or had conversation with someone from Chen village, just as Aikido had influence from Bagua Zhang.
Peace.

It's a bit more complex. Morihei Ueshiba's aikido is daito ryu, and neither him nor Sokaku Takeda (daito ryu's probable creator) were documented to have had contact with Taiji or Bagua. The aikido-bagua connection was, IIRC, hypothesized by Bruce Frantzis based on some observation and a lot of conjectures.

That being said, in his book "Hidden in plain sight", Ellis Amdur argues that the body usage method of Chinese internal arts was also present in many Japanese martial traditions, probably including the ones studied by Takeda. So yes, there probably is a connection through that heritage, which can be seen for examples in the push tests and silk pulling done in some lines of daito ryu or aikido.

I don't know what you mean by "matching the techniques" and I don't know much about Taiji Chin Na. On the one hand, daito ryu's technical curriculum comes from traditional Japanese jujutsu and sumo. On the other hand, there are not that many ways to do stand-up grappling...

 

[namelessperson]

So, discovered this topic during a search on Aikijujutsu. Its always been intersting to me that practicing ( practical ) Chen Taijiquan and other variations as well as Bagua Zhang, that I am able to match the techniques of Aikijujutsu and Aikido without formally training in a school. I've had the thought that someone must have learned or had conversation with someone from Chen village, just as Aikido had influence from Bagua Zhang.
Peace.

Ueshiba studied with Sokaku so of course you will see things like Aikijujutsu in Aikido just look at Ikkyo and Ippon Dori as one example.
There are also many things in Daito ryu that I do not think are in Aikido maybe at one time they were or Ueshiba knew them but your local Aikido school that is Aikikai I do not it that way.

Chen Taijiquan and Baguazhang have nothing to do with Aikijujutsu and Aikido. There are only so many ways you can twist a body and certain principles may be on the surface similar, but Daito ryu is most likely Sokaku's synthesis of his Sumo, Jujujutsu, Kenjutsu, and Sojutsu training. Ueshiba's Aikido is an extension of his training in Daito ryu among other little training in other arts.

I suppose all these arts do have the Hara or Dan Tien in common but I find Daito ryu to be a more rigid structure in the Jujujutsu-type applications and the the higher levels are more in line with Kenjutsu strategies. Chen Taijiquan is more round and fluid which again is a characteristic of Chinese martial arts and the Chinese approach to the more rigid structure of Japanese arts and way of doing things.

It has already been debunked by Stanley Pranin that Ueshiba most likely did not study any Baguazhang when he was in Mongolia.
Bruce Frantzis did write he thinks Ueshiba studied Baguazhang or had some influence, but it is doubtful.

So as someone who has trained in all three arts(Baguazhang, Chen Taijiquan, and Daito ryu), I can tell you they are completely different and have almost nothing to do with each other in technique and historical connection, and even if they were it is so far removed from the source.

Your comment was so absurd, that I had to create an account to reply to it even though I have not posted on Martial talk since maybe 2-3 years.

 

[Teapot]

There's something called Hitchens's Razor which states that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

The Burden of Proof lies on the one who wishes to assert that Taijiquan and Aikido/Daito-Ryu exchanged content. Those who deny this assertion are under no obligation to provide evidence.

I practice Chen Taijiquan, and from my viewpoint, there are a lot more differences than there are similarities between it and Aikido.

And among the similarities, it tends to be very basic stuff. Aikido's Nikyo is such a common Qinna method that pretty much any martial art style that uses Qinna will have it.
Bagazuzhang:

Aikido calls this Nikyo:

Taijiquan:

White Crane - they practice this hand position which they can apply this Qinna from.

Aikido has Kote-gaeshi - a reverse wrist Qinna which is.... also a pretty damn common technique in martial arts.

Aikido has Ikkyo - which is a pretty damn common in martial arts.

The details and strategies will vary. For example, Aikido might use Ikkyo, bring the opponent onto the ground, and kneel on the ground right next to them. But in Taijiquan, they're going to be standing the entire time; most Chinese martial arts like to stay standing whenever possible.

Aikido might drop onto a knee to bring someone down such as with Shihonage. Taijiquan wouldn't do that. If they want a sharp, dropping energy, they're going to sink onto a leg.

You will need some compelling and specific evidence on what makes you think they're connected. Because it's very easy to point to the very basic stuff that's ubiquitous in martial arts.

Within these basic stuff, there are also variations and depth that are also unique to the style. There are variations in Chen Taijiquan that Aikido would probably not have.