Curl Up In A Ball....

[MJS]

and let the bad guys win. Well, at least that's what the Police Chief thinks.
http://clashdaily.com/2013/08/screw...ath-on-fighting-back-says-no-racism-involved/

Doug Giles – So, I guess now (according to this dillweed), we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us lest we become responsible for our own death. Should we curl up in the fetal position? Should we also pee our pants? Straub’s a disgrace.
The 88-year-old World War II veteran who was randomly beaten to death Wednesday likely died because he tried to fend off his attackers.
Two teenage boys are charged in the bloody beating of Delbert Belton outside a Spokane, Washington ice skating rink and investigators are now suggesting the soldier—who took a bullet in the Battle of Okinawa—tried to stop the apparent robbery.
Police say that enraged the teens and turned their petty theft into full-blown murder as they continued to beat him into submission with ‘big, heavy flashlights.’

‘Our information is that the individual fought back and that may have made this, you know, a worse situation,’ said Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub in a Monday press conference.

I agree with the person who wrote this article. The chief is a disgrace, but what do you expect him to say...this is the typical, standard reply, when it comes to SD. Even if the old man was fighting back....seriously...how much of a fight could he have been putting up? I doubt it was enough to warrant getting killed by these punks.

 

[arnisador]

Doug Giles – So, I guess now (according to this dillweed), we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us

I agree with the person who wrote this article.

Ugh. Leaving aside the racism, it's absolutely true that sometimes fighting back makes things worse--which is one reason why most of us advise against doing that in a robbery if the robber(s) have not yet begun yes violence themselves. It's ignorant to say that that makes a person "responsible for [his] own death" in such a case--it's just good self-defense advice. It's why people who teach rape self-defense are reluctant to give one-size-fits-all advice on fighting back--every person makes their own choice about whether it's worth risking a more serious physical injury or death in such a situation.

‘Our information is that the individual fought back and that may have made this, you know, a worse situation,’ said Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub in a Monday press conference.

That's just a flat statement of his opinion. It happens that way sometimes and it doesn't involve the aggressors of any responsibility or shift any to the victim to say that some actions will yield less bad outcomes than others in some circumstances.

Sometimes fighting back will get you killed. Sometimes it will save you. It's generally hard to know which situation you are in with any degree of certainty. But I can easily believe that this man might still be alive with his body and pride wounded had he let them take what they wanted. Perhaps he knew this and chose to fight back anyway; perhaps it just happened and he didn't have time to think about it. But this is not merely race-baiting, it's also worthless advice. He did fight back, and he did die--fighting back did not improve the situation for him. But your advice is that everyone should fight back against "black teenage thugs" anyway?

 

[MJS]

Ugh. Leaving aside the racism, it's absolutely true that sometimes fighting back makes things worse--which is one reason why most of us advise against doing that in a robbery if the robber(s) have not yet begun yes violence themselves. It's ignorant to say that that makes a person "responsible for [his] own death" in such a case--it's just good self-defense advice. It's why people who teach rape self-defense are reluctant to give one-size-fits-all advice on fighting back--every person makes their own choice about whether it's worth risking a more serious physical injury or death in such a situation.



That's just a flat statement of his opinion. It happens that way sometimes and it doesn't involve the aggressors of any responsibility or shift any to the victim to say that some actions will yield less bad outcomes than others in some circumstances.

Sometimes fighting back will get you killed. Sometimes it will save you. It's generally hard to know which situation you are in with any degree of certainty. But I can easily believe that this man might still be alive with his body and pride wounded had he let them take what they wanted. Perhaps he knew this and chose to fight back anyway; perhaps it just happened and he didn't have time to think about it. But this is not merely race-baiting, it's also worthless advice. He did fight back, and he did die--fighting back did not improve the situation for him. But your advice is that everyone should fight back against "black teenage thugs" anyway?

I remember one of my old teachers. He had a saying...you wait too long, you wait wrong. He usually applied this mainly to sparring. That said, the following can happen:

We can comply and the bad guy will not harm us.

We can comply and the bad guy will harm us.

We can fight back and lose.

We can fight back and win.

How many times have we heard, in situations like this, ie: robbery, people will say they'll comply ONLY until the BG suggests taking the victim to another location. Each situation has to be viewed differently, but IMO, if the opportunity presents itself, I'm going to fight back.

You said in your opening line, "leaving aside the racism", but further down, you state that my advice is to fight back against 'black teenage thugs.' Personally, I don't care what the race is. This situation, just like many other recent ones, involved black teens. We can insert purple aliens with red horns if you want. Like I said, how much of a fight do you think this old man put up? He was what...88yrs old? Appeared to be small build. If they wanted to rob him that bad, one could've grabbed him in a bearhug and held him while the other took his cash. They hit this guy, no doubt he went down, and they kept hitting him.

So, to answer your question....no, I'm not giving advice. I'm simply stating what *I* prefer to do. I work hard for what I have, and I don't feel like rolling over for the bad guy.

 

[Big Don]

‘Our information is that the individual fought back and that may have made this, you know, a worse situation,’ said Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub in a Monday press conference.

Oh, the old "Lie back and think of England/Try to enjoy it" ploy. A Classic in idiocy.
As for curling into the fetal position, that leaves your spine and a number of easily damaged organs, KIDNEYS!!! open...

 

[arnisador]

The chief was able to look back after the fact--a luxury one doesn't have in the moment--and render an opinion on whether fighting back was ultimately better or worse in this case. Since the person died, it couldn't have been better. So, I don't see what the complaint about the chief is--he didn't say never fight back, He observed that since the victim here died, it didn't help this time. How could you possibly dispute that?

Doug Giles – So, I guess now (according to this dillweed), we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us

I agree with the person who wrote this article.

Personally, I don't care what the race is.

(Emphasis mine.) Look, you quoted that line and then said you agreed with it. How many ways are you hoping to have this? You're the one who injected race. I find that offensive. You didn't say "I agree with the person who wrote this article (about a certain aspect)"; you said "I agree with the person who wrote this article." (full stop). Left to our imagination is his opinion on white teenage thugs and whether you'd also agree with him on that.

This is offensive, race-baiting stuff.

 

[arnisador]

‘Our information is that the individual fought back and that may have made this, you know, a worse situation,’ said Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub in a Monday press conference.

Oh, the old "Lie back and think of England/Try to enjoy it" ploy. A Classic in idiocy.

Did fighting back help here? You are making a bizarre parody of his factual observation as to what did happen in this case, after the incident was over--making as though he said something he did not. It is a fact that fighting back is not the best strategy 100% of the time. That you can't know that in advance doesn't mean it can't be true in retrospect.

Everyone is outraged that this man was killed, but not everyone is trying to manufacture additional outrage by putting words in the mouths of others.

 

[Carol]

NH Fish and Game states that when encountering a black bear, you should remain facing the bear, and slowly back away. Don't turn and run as that may give the bear reason to give chase. But when a hiking friend of mine decided to take one last walk under the stars before going to bed...and found a bear in her camp, she took a different tactic. She screamed and chased the bear out of camp. She and her campmates spent the rest of the night in peace -- perhaps after confirming their bags were properly hung

I think an aggressive action swift and direct is a valuable response in a variety of situations. Naturally one doesn't want to be stupid about choosing aggression, but it is not necessarily wise to stand and wait, either.

 

[Big Don]

Did fighting back help here? You are making a bizarre parody of his factual observation as to what did happen in this case, after the incident was over--making as though he said something he did not. It is a fact that fighting back is not the best strategy 100% of the time. That you can't know that in advance doesn't mean it can't be true in retrospect.

Everyone is outraged that this man was killed, but not everyone is trying to manufacture additional outrage by putting words in the mouths of others.

A shame Shorty didn't have a gun...
Here are some words from the mouth of another named Zapata:

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees

 

[arnisador]

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees

He may well have thought that, and I respect his choice (assuming he was of sound mind to make it). How does that change the chief's assessment? The chief simply said fighting back didn't work and may have made things worse. He never said you couldn't or shouldn't. You're arguing with actual, after-the-fact, verifiable occurrences. He fought back and died.

You're arguing with reality in favor of your gunslinger's fantasy.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here is a website which I find has some good advice on surviving violence, pay particular attention to; 'know what is worth fighting for (4)' 'know your resistance point (5)' and ' never give up (8)".

http://www.miyamaryu.org/freejujutsubook.html

 

[MJS]

The chief was able to look back after the fact--a luxury one doesn't have in the moment--and render an opinion on whether fighting back was ultimately better or worse in this case. Since the person died, it couldn't have been better. So, I don't see what the complaint about the chief is--he didn't say never fight back, He observed that since the victim here died, it didn't help this time. How could you possibly dispute that?

No, he didn't say that in so many words, however, his words implied that by fighting back, one can assume that death is a high possibility. THAT is what I disagree with. As I said, in cases like this, what this guy said, is the standard SOP. Oh, and FWIW, the punks and their lawyer are now claiming the old man was selling crack! LOL! LOL! LOL! Yeah, big bad 88yr old crack dealer.

(Emphasis mine.)

Again, the emphasis you're harping on, was NOT something I said. Its something the author of the article said.

Look, you quoted that line and then said you agreed with it.

Ummm....no...I quoted the entire article. I agreed with the point that we should not just bow down and kiss the *** of the bad guys. YOU are the one who's getting off on twisting things to suit your needs.

How many ways are you hoping to have this?

WTF are you talking about?? My points are pretty clear.

You're the one who injected race. I find that offensive.

Then report the posts! You're not a stranger to how things work around here, and you should know that staff isn't 'above the law'. Again, instead of twisting and assuming Arni, get things right! I injected NOTHING, as I didn't write the article. If you go back, you'll see that I have said that I don't care what the race is...black, white, Hispanic, or purple aliens with red horns. My point, AGAIN, is that *I* don't care what the race is...we shouldn't be paranoid to defend ourselves!!!

You didn't say "I agree with the person who wrote this article (about a certain aspect)"; you said "I agree with the person who wrote this article." (full stop). Left to our imagination is his opinion on white teenage thugs and whether you'd also agree with him on that.

Sigh...there you go again, twisting stuff. That wasn't the case at all. In this case, it was 2 black kids. It could be 2 white kids. Bottom line is...the guy writing the article is making the point that we shouldn't have to curl up and be a victim.

This is offensive, race-baiting stuff.

Then stop acting like a God damn child Arni and hit the RTM! If it's offending you that much, report me. This is no more offensive than any of the other topics in the study, and I'd be more than happy to point them out to you. Hell, that long *** Martin/Zimmerman thread is a classic example. Oh, and FWIW, if you're that fragile Arni, then let me ask you....why are you posting in the thread? To troll? I mean, if you're not going to contribute anything useful, why are you here????

I posted this in the SELF DEFENSE section, NOT the study. Why? Because I want to discuss the aspect of SD, NOT race.

 

[arnisador]

No, he didn't say that in so many words, however, his words implied that by fighting back, one can assume that death is a high possibility. THAT is what I disagree with.

I think you're seeing what you expect to see here--but what he said was specific to this one case. I always advise handing over the wallet rather than fighting back when avoiding fighting is possible (and in this case he may not have had the chance--I'm not clear on that). I think it's safest and that safety, not pride, is the goal. One must use one's own judgment but in a mugging my general advice is let them take what they want if you judge that that'll end it. Do you advise differently? Fight if possible?

Then stop acting like a God damn child Arni and hit the RTM! If it's offending you that much, report me.

I didn't say you violated any rules. I said that quoting and agreeing with race-baiting ("we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us") offends me. Offending me is not in and of itself a reportable offense, but I'd sure have edited out the racial angle rather than posting it and agreeing with it...if I quoted a racist at all.

I posted this in the SELF DEFENSE section, NOT the study. Why? Because I want to discuss the aspect of SD, NOT race.

I would advise leaving race out of the discussion if you don't want race in the discussion. I would not have wanted to associate myself with the kind of person who would write "we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us" even if I agreed with the other stuff he had to say (which I don't). Sorry, but you can't go around posting this kind of offensive material and then declare its discussion off-limits. It appears that the author of the piece feel the fact that these were black teenage thugs is relevant. You brought this to the dance, dude, but I don't believe in letting this sort of thing pass without commentary, as though it's a normal thing for someone to say.

 

[MJS]

I think you're seeing what you expect to see here--but what he said was specific to this one case. I always advise handing over the wallet rather than fighting back when avoiding fighting is possible (and in this case he may not have had the chance--I'm not clear on that). I think it's safest and that safety, not pride, is the goal. One must use one's own judgment but in a mugging my general advice is let them take what they want if you judge that that'll end it. Do you advise differently? Fight if possible?

In this case the kids were black. But as I said, any race can be inserted. Whatever the case may be, the bottom line is...they were thugs, they were punks, and they should be locked up for a long time! Oh as for fighting back...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...rpetrators-who-learned-a-very-painful-lesson/

Two suspected robbers left the scene of their own crime looking like the victims of a brutal attack after their would-be victims fought back.
Johnny Calderon Jr., 19, and Gerald Allen, 18, attempted to rob two University of Virginia students at gunpoint, which turned out to be a huge, painful mistake, according to police in Charlottesville, Va.
Police arrived on the scene to find the two students had beaten up and detained the suspects.

Clearly, Allen got the worst of the beating. His right eye was swollen shut and his face bloodied. However, Calderon didn’t get off easy and arrived at the police station with a black eye and plenty of bruises.
Calderon has been charged with two counts of attempted robbery, one count of pointing a firearm and using a firearm in the commission of a felony, WVIR-TV reports. Allen is facing two counts of attempted robbery.
“Calderon is due in General District Court Friday morning for a hearing. Allen is due in court on October 3,” the report adds.

A friend of mine posted this on FB. Those pieces of **** got what they deserved! 18 and 19yrs old, and you've got NOTHING better to do, than go out and rob someone? Go get a ****ing job! Go give something back to your community. Do SOMETHING, ANYTHING productive! Oh, check out the video clip. Notice how the reporter makes the same SOP statement that the other cop did.

I didn't say you violated any rules. I said that quoting and agreeing with race-baiting ("we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us") offends me. Offending me is not in and of itself a reportable offense, but I'd sure have edited out the racial angle rather than posting it and agreeing with it...if I quoted a racist at all.

Ok, your offended. Then let me ask you...if it offends you, why did you reply in the first place? If it was that bad, I'd have figured that you would've just passed the thread by. OTOH, there was quite a bit of race discussion in the TM/GZ thread. You were active in that, weren't you? So, in your opinion, I should've edited out the word 'black' from the original article?

I would advise leaving race out of the discussion if you don't want race in the discussion. I would not have wanted to associate myself with the kind of person who would write "we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us" even if I agreed with the other stuff he had to say (which I don't). Sorry, but you can't go around posting this kind of offensive material and then declare its discussion off-limits. It appears that the author of the piece feel the fact that these were black teenage thugs is relevant. You brought this to the dance, dude, but I don't believe in letting this sort of thing pass without commentary, as though it's a normal thing for someone to say.

But that's my point....I'm not talking about race...you are! I quoted an article. I mean, its a no brainer that the kids were black, so, IMO, whether or not I made an edit or not, is moot. My point of posting this, was to talk about fighting back, and whether or not it really played a part, as the sheriff is claiming, was the cause of the guys death.

 

[arnisador]

Ok, your offended. Then let me ask you...if it offends you, why did you reply in the first place? If it was that bad, I'd have figured that you would've just passed the thread by.

Eh...just let offensive race-baiting slide by without comment? I think remaining silent in a case like that is cowardly. When people say racist things in front of me in real-life, I generally call them on it--as I would have for something like this, and as I did here in print.

OTOH, there was quite a bit of race discussion in the TM/GZ thread. You were active in that, weren't you? So, in your opinion, I should've edited out the word 'black' from the original article?

You quoted him as saying, in his opening sentence, "So, I guess now (according to this dillweed), we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us" and then said "I agree with the person who wrote this article." I'm not sure what conclusion you were expecting me to draw when you wrote that--I concluded that you agreed with the person who wrote this article. I don't think you should let any teenage thugs beat the crap out of you if you can reasonably avoid it. In the TM/GZ thread there was a national discussion on whether racial issues were a factor. Why is it reasonable to want to inject race here? I haven't seen any indication that the victim was targeted because of his race or that the teenagers--and this is really the implication of the material you posted--acted this way because of theirs.

My point of posting this, was to talk about fighting back, and whether or not it really played a part, as the sheriff is claiming, was the cause of the guys death.

Sometimes people comment on various parts of your post, not just one part of it. I commented on both your claim that "The chief is a disgrace" for saying what he did--which I read differently than you, I think--and on your posting offensively race-baiting material in the quoted text and flatly saying that you agree with what the author wrote. Would you disagree with me that the material you quoted contains racially charged language for no reason relevant to the issue of self-defense?

But if you really want to drop the racial aspect--feel free to do so. I've said my piece on it.

 

[MJS]

Eh...just let offensive race-baiting slide by without comment? I think remaining silent in a case like that is cowardly. When people say racist things in front of me in real-life, I generally call them on it--as I would have for something like this, and as I did here in print.

Hmm...as I said, YOU, not me, was the one that brought up the race issue. What did I say that was racist? That I agreed with the author, that we shouldn't let thugs beat us up? LOL! Are you hinting that I'm a racist Arni? Because if that's the case, you're so far out in left field its not funny. LOL! I'm far from racist. I have black friends, Hispanic friends, even gay friends.

You quoted him as saying, in his opening sentence, "So, I guess now (according to this dillweed), we’re supposed to let black teenage thugs beat the crap out of us" and then said "I agree with the person who wrote this article." I'm not sure what conclusion you were expecting me to draw when you wrote that--I concluded that you agreed with the person who wrote this article. I don't think you should let any teenage thugs beat the crap out of you if you can reasonably avoid it. In the TM/GZ thread there was a national discussion on whether racial issues were a factor. Why is it reasonable to want to inject race here? I haven't seen any indication that the victim was targeted because of his race or that the teenagers--and this is really the implication of the material you posted--acted this way because of theirs.

Its not reasonable to inject race here, because while this too, is a national thing, I'm talking about the SD side. You're the one sidetracking the thread. Perhaps I should report YOU for being so far off topic! I mean really dude, if you're going to keep dragging this more off track, while I'm trying to have a discussion on the SD side, why don't you just go away and troll another thread/forum. Oh, just so you know, trolling is a no no here. As for the race issue:

1.8 Threats, Racism, Sexism, and Challenges:


Messages that are openly hostile, defamatory, sexual, vulgar, or harassing, will not be tolerated, and may be in violation of the law. Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (race, religion, sexual preference, interracial couples, etc.) will not be tolerated.


From the rules. If you're offended, if you think something is offensive, report it! But if you're not going to, then unless you've got something constructive to add, please, stop posting in this thread.

Sometimes people comment on various parts of your post, not just one part of it. I commented on both your claim that "The chief is a disgrace" for saying what he did--which I read differently than you, I think--and on your posting offensively race-baiting material in the quoted text and flatly saying that you agree with what the author wrote. Would you disagree with me that the material you quoted contains racially charged language for no reason relevant to the issue of self-defense?

But if you really want to drop the racial aspect--feel free to do so. I've said my piece on it.

Hmm...tell me something I don't know. LOL! You're doing your best to take this off track intentionally, and you know it. And perhaps you should take your own advice and drop the racial aspect, seeing that I'm not the one talking about it..you are!

 

[Dirty Dog]

In keeping with the idea of discussing the SD aspects of the case...


Those who have read the story of how I lost an eye won't be surprised to hear that I am not in favor of 'going along'.

There's no one-size-fits-all answer, but I am pretty well convinced that allowing the criminal to decide when things get physical is often not a good choice. My personal plan is to play along just as long as it takes for the bad guy to be distracted for one moment, and then do everything in my power to drop them like a bad habit.

Want my wallet? Here it is. But I'll drop it when I pass it over. When your eyes reflexively follow it down, don't be surprised if I decide to change the direction of our encounter...

 

[arnisador]

What did I say that was racist? That I agreed with the author, that we shouldn't let black thugs beat us up?

I've edited your comment to reflect what you actually did have in the original post rather than your sanitized version here.

Are you hinting that I'm a racist Arni? Because if that's the case, you're so far out in left field its not funny. LOL! I'm far from racist. I have black friends, Hispanic friends, even gay friends.

Are they some of your best friends? Because that would be especially convincing.

drop the racial aspect, seeing that I'm not the one talking about it..

Yes, you seem to be not talking about it at great length.

I don't particularly care to continue discussing this.

 

[arnisador]

Those who have read the story of how I lost an eye won't be surprised to hear that I am not in favor of 'going along'.

There's no one-size-fits-all answer, but I am pretty well convinced that allowing the criminal to decide when things get physical is often not a good choice. My personal plan is to play along just as long as it takes for the bad guy to be distracted for one moment, and then do everything in my power to drop them like a bad habit.

Want my wallet? Here it is. But I'll drop it when I pass it over. When your eyes reflexively follow it down, don't be surprised if I decide to change the direction of our encounter...

Everyone must make their own decision on something like this. It's hard to know when showing resistance will engender fear and when it will heighten the tension and lead to a greater level of violence. In the case of an 88 year old man facing multiple armed (with heavy flashlights, I gather?) opponents, I'm less convinced this was the best gamble--and in this case it certainly wasn't. If his pride wouldn't let him go down without a fight, I certainly respect his decision; but since he died, he can't be said to be better off for having fought back. He shouldn't have been put in this position' he had every right to fight back; but the police chief's comment that he was worse off for it seems objectively accurate, however unsettling as it may be.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

WARNING

Gents, you've made your points and derailed the thread. Enough. This isn't the Study. Stick to the Self Defence aspect. Next one off topic gets infracted.

 

[Tgace]

Maybe kids should be trained not to rob and murder people...maybe they didn't know it was wrong. Religion is passe so I guess classroom instruction is required.

As to fighting or not...are you a fighter or not? I'm thinking this old soldier preferred going out swinging. Sure fighting could escalate the situation...and acquiesceing could result in getting killed without ever putting up a fight. Id like to think Id go down swinging too.

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