Criminals will kill if you fight back

[Bill Mattocks]

For the record, I don't agree with this. Posting for discussion purposes.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/criminals-will-kill-if-you-fight-back-1.1248125

“My advice is to co-operate because they (criminals) want to see you submit to their authority and hear you say they are in control. Do this and the chances of survival are much greater. Resist and they won’t hesitate to kill you. They believe their lives are much more valuable than yours,” Burger said.

Bear in mind that this story is from South Africa, where the criminal situation may be different than the West.

 

[billc]

Sometimes they kill you anyway. I saw a news show about a program where victims confronted their attackers at the prison. The story shown was about a motel clerk who was robbed by 3 or 4 guys. They had the money and left, the guy picked himself off the floor, where they told him to stay, then one of them ran back in and shot him. Luckily, he was a body builder, and the bullet didn't penetrate far enough to kill him. They had the money and were leaving and then they came back to kill him. It happens that way as well.

 

[MJS]

Well, I don't agree with it either. Case in point:
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-new-britain-home-invasion-0302-20120301,0,289543.story

The women in this case, were cooperating, offered money and their car. This happened a while ago, but earlier reports on this, said that the reason he decided to kill the women, is that they saw his face. So despite full cooperation, he shot them both, one had to "play dead" and unfortunately, her friend was not so lucky, as she was raped, and then shot.

Perhaps that is the best advice over there, where it seems the animals are running wild, but for me, I'm an advocate of fighting back, when the situation presents the opportunity to do so. IMO, when that moment does present itself, I say go for it, because you may not get a second chance.

 

[billc]

A good starting point is to make sure the bad guys aren't the only ones with guns.

 

[seasoned]

And if I may add, it is something we should think about everyday. If we go over it in our mind, if or when it does happen, we will be better prepared to make a reasonable decision on the spot.....

 

[Buka]

I guess it depends on who's being victimized. If someone has no skills, ill health, whatever, that's one thing.

But if someone does have skills, health, attitude etc, that's a whole different story. This whole "don't fight back" thing comes around every few years. Just as the "exercise isn't good for you" does every decade or so.

As for South Africa, it's become the murder by stabbing capital of the world. I have many friends there who are in the arts, and who have killed in self defense in the last five years. I know just as many people there who have fought back successfully as here in the states.

As for that writer who wants me to cooperate with the bad guy - kiss my old, narrow mindedness, chump.

 

[Cyriacus]

What alot of folks forget is that Criminals are under a ton of pressure. Imagine the rush and the constant racing of the mind, thinking of how everything needs to get done QUICKLY, You need to GO. And this person could do ANYTHING. They might beat YOU down if Youre not careful!
Criminals arent cool cucumbers who can be fitted into a niche. Alot of the time, Id say the unnecessary force, namely before, say, running off, is a kind of panic response under pressure.

 

[WC_lun]

Circumstance is everything. Telling someone to fight back or not fight back in every case is moronic. If someone has a gun and wants your money, best odds are to give it to him. Yes, sometimes a criminal will shoot anyway, but best odds are to give the money. If someone wants you to get in a vehicle, best odds are to fight back, because your chance of surviving go way down if they want you alone. However, again it isn't an all or nothing thing. Sometimes the criminal will let you go.

The one thing which is absolute is do not judge the situation with your ego. A sure fire way to get hurt is start judging the situation with "I'm a martial artist and I should fight back." The fact is most people are not trained to deal with live weapons, under the stress of a real self-defense situation. So while your training isn't exactly helpless, it isn't for the situation at hand either. It is all fine and good to train knife or even gun self-defense in the comforts of your school. It is quite another to pull thse techniques off when not doing so perfectly can get you kiled.

Telling someone they should fight back without an eye to differeing situations is niave and irresponsable, in my opinion.

 

[Jenna]

Circumstance is everything. Telling someone to fight back or not fight back in every case is moronic.

I think that is a key phrase exactly as you have outlined.

 

[granfire]

it's a lose/lose deal.

When i go to town I drive past a place with 4 crosses in front. Used to be a Block buster video place...
Once fine day a guy walks in with a gun to rob the place. Points the gun at the 2 employees and 2 patrons...they give him their wallets, whatever else he wants...
only to die execution style on the floor of the store...

Would they have had a chance if they had fought? Who knows, but hitting a running target is harder than the back of the head of a kneeling person.

Never say never...
Or always.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I've said before, it's about self-defense, not about money defense or property defense or ego defense, and it's especially not about teaching someone a lesson, etc.

Remember the old bumper sticker "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees?" I hate that. Once you're dead, you can defend no one else. You can no longer defend yourself. You can't ever be free, or be anything, again. Living 'on your knees' means you're alive; where there is life, there is hope. Eh, everyone has to make their own choices.

The fact is that most armed robberies do not end in murder. Most rapes do not end in murder. But some do. So there are no guarantees. However, based on the statistics, with no other information available, the odds favor compliance. That doesn't mean 'always' or 'never'. It means you must be able to analyze and decide, as quickly as possible, and act quickly. It also doesn't mean you cannot change your mind, and your reactions, as the situation changes.

One thing is certain. If you fight, fight with everything you have; failure to overcome your aggressor or escape them may mean your death.

 

[Big Don]

Circumstance is everything. Telling someone to fight back or not fight back in every case is moronic. If someone has a gun and wants your money, best odds are to give it to him.

15 years ago, the Baskin Robbins a mile from me was robbed twice in two weeks at knife point. This was well before I began training in martial arts, but, then and there I decided something. If the bad guy has a gun, I will cheerfully load whatever he wants in his car for him, if someone has a knife, he's gonna have to cut me, because we are going to be fighting.
It is easy to kill someone with a gun, that is exactly what makes them good for self defense, point and click (BOOM).

 

[seasoned]

As I've said before, it's about self-defense, not about money defense or property defense or ego defense, and it's especially not about teaching someone a lesson, etc.

Remember the old bumper sticker "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees?" I hate that. Once you're dead, you can defend no one else. You can no longer defend yourself. You can't ever be free, or be anything, again. Living 'on your knees' means you're alive; where there is life, there is hope. Eh, everyone has to make their own choices.

The fact is that most armed robberies do not end in murder. Most rapes do not end in murder. But some do. So there are no guarantees. However, based on the statistics, with no other information available, the odds favor compliance. That doesn't mean 'always' or 'never'. It means you must be able to analyze and decide, as quickly as possible, and act quickly. It also doesn't mean you cannot change your mind, and your reactions, as the situation changes.

One thing is certain. If you fight, fight with everything you have; failure to overcome your aggressor or escape them may mean your death.

This is key, Bill, and what I hope everone takes away with them from your great post.......

Side note:
When in training, train with all youe heart, and make it real in your mind. In the heat of battle when your mind goes blank, training is all you will have to fall back on.............................

 

[MA-Caver]

Someone tries to rob me now-a-days... they'd better pray that they don't stupidly put themselves in a position where I'm just going to unload on them and send THEIR asses to the hospital and eventually jail. Damned right I'm going to fight back. Most criminals are wimps and not as bad as some can be. I wonder if this guy Burger has ever been mugged?

 

[decepticon]

I agree that the criminals don't value my life as much as their own. I agree that they want to see me submit and say they are in control. That's why I train to lift my hands, palms forward, in front of my face, to avert my gaze, and to say, "Please, I don't want any..." at which time my raised arms are already in blocking position and my hands are in the vicinity for a quick strike.

 

[mook jong man]

I agree that the criminals don't value my life as much as their own. I agree that they want to see me submit and say they are in control. That's why I train to lift my hands, palms forward, in front of my face, to avert my gaze, and to say, "Please, I don't want any..." at which time my raised arms are already in blocking position and my hands are in the vicinity for a quick strike.

That is commonly called a "Fence" and there are a few different types of fence.

The problem is a lot of people know the fence but do not spend nearly enough time training in attacking and defending from the fence position.

Techniques that will work from your normal guard position of whatever martial art it is that you do , will work slightly different from the fence position , and whilst you are getting used to that there will be a bit of a drop in normal performance.

In other words you have to be able to "Fight" from whichever particular type of fence you are using.

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree that the criminals don't value my life as much as their own. I agree that they want to see me submit and say they are in control. That's why I train to lift my hands, palms forward, in front of my face, to avert my gaze, and to say, "Please, I don't want any..." at which time my raised arms are already in blocking position and my hands are in the vicinity for a quick strike.

Yeah and your hands are in perfect position for a blade to slash at them... particularly if you're averting your gaze.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah and your hands are in perfect position for a blade to slash at them... particularly if you're averting your gaze.

Or a...
How shall I put this.

Attacker: *Grabs Left Wrist with Left Hand* *Barrage of Right Hooks*

 

[mook jong man]

Or a...
How shall I put this.

Attacker: *Grabs Left Wrist with Left Hand* *Barrage of Right Hooks*

There is certainly a possibility that your hands could be slashed , but an argument could also be made that your hands are up there ready to parry or capture the knife wielding wrist.

As for arm grabs , that's why you learn quick release counter arm grab techniques.

Averting your gaze I do not like , it may help you appear submissive and help with the act , but really you want to have your eyes on them at all times in case they initiate.

The primary function of the fence is to control distance and enable you to have time to react , it doesn't matter how many years training you have under your belt, if you let them get too close and they initiate the attack you will be hit .

 

[Cyriacus]

There is certainly a possibility that your hands could be slashed , but an argument could also be made that your hands are up there ready to parry or capture the knife wielding wrist.

As for arm grabs , that's why you learn quick release counter arm grab techniques.

Averting your gaze I do not like , it may help you appear submissive and help with the act , but really you want to have your eyes on them at all times in case they initiate.

The primary function of the fence is to control distance and enable you to have time to react , it doesn't matter how many years training you have under your belt, if you let them get too close and they initiate the attack you will be hit .

Of course - But lets not think Were indestructible just because We practice getting out of various grabs and strikes.

That said, I think its vastly more important to put one foot slightly back. Having Your Hands up is just an added bonus (A big, big bonus, mind).
That said again, its the averted gaze that factors out parrying the Knife, or nullifying a series of Punches and a Grab. With Eyes on Target, Your chance of success is exponentially better. You can just, say, lean Your head back and try to look wide eyed.

In its own fun kind of way, Sticking Hands (Specifically Archetypical of Your Signature) would probably work pretty well if the Attacker Grabbed the Wrist, then tried to Verbally Threaten You whilst, say, toting their other hand.